(14-08-2021, 03:00 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (13-08-2021, 12:27 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If this German version really references a codex book instead of a scroll, it can probably be a excluded a priori right?
I have this question into an expert at translations . . .
I'll be back once I hear.
Hi, Koen:
I heard back from my expert and he was actually rather reticent about the issue. I think it could be related to how difficult it is to take a position without diving in pretty deep and he is definitely time resource limited right now, having just started a new job.
That being said, certainly the general logic of a primary goal of the vernacular Bible being to reach "the masses" could support the possible swapping in of more "familiar" images, such as perhaps switching books for scrolls.
Balancing this consideration would be the thought that a society having laboriously copied the Vulgate as exactly as possible for so long, would the psychology of fiddling with the text really be there even with translation into the vernacular? Certainly something like the You are not allowed to view links.
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So, I don't think it is illogical to eliminate those vernaculars that seem to be not related to the underlying image you're hypothesizing the text is "matching" - but I can't eliminate the general premise that the term "book" in Middle English (Wycliffe) or "
bůch" (Mentelin) or "buche" (Augsburg) or Brieff (Luther) wouldn't also mean "scroll" to someone at that time in the context (e.g. maybe also having prior exposure to the verse in Latin(?)) or in the context of the verbs in the sentences.
Sorry to not have a more definitive bit of advice.
Michelle
Thanks Michelle, I feel the same. In Dutch for example, a scroll can be called "boekrol", so the thought of a book is there. However, in all examples I have found so far, Germanic languages always use some word related to "roll", precisely to indicate how the object is different from the codex. For that reason I would still lean towards eliminating those particular versions in the vernacular, keeping open the possibility that we may need to return to them later.
In Revelation, the word "βιβλιον" was used. Originally, in Greek it meant "papyrus", so implied a scroll of papyrus. Since in ancient times until the III c. scrolls were more widely used than books-codexes, besides, the Revelation itself was written on a papyrus scroll, it was more logically to translate the word βιβλιον as "scroll", I think.
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It was to be translated in Latin as "volumen". Possibly, that was a mistake of translators, which didn't know history well, so they took the third (later) meaning of "βιβλιον" - liber, codex. And, I think, with time, it was understood that exactly a scroll is mentioned.
This is very interesting. This may explain why the image is so rare in the arts, but does appear in the Byzantine sphere. This includes one example by Giotto, who seems to have understood "scroll" in the 14th century.
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(19-08-2021, 02:01 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is very interesting. This may explain why the image is so rare in the arts, but does appear in the Byzantine sphere.
In the Latin Vulgate Rev 6:14,
involutus still conveys the meaning of wrapped, rolled. It wasn't lost in translation.
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(19-08-2021, 02:01 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This includes one example by Giotto, who seems to have understood "scroll" in the 14th century.
Here is the complete fresco on which you can see how the sky is rolled up from both sides.
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attachment=5763]
The imagery is great and it's clear that the Biblical text is fairly specific in what it says. So, given the repetitious structure at the end of the VMs text segment (per Marco), it does not appear to be a comparable match with the Biblical text, which lacks this structure
How would an attack work? There needs to be some sort of correspondence between the two text segments - some way in which comparative similarities can be recognized. Rather than differences.
Obvious difficulty arises in the selection of the two text segments. The Vms has a lot of written text. Selection of a particular text segment could be as easy as a small asterisk. It's a bit more complex, but the VMs illustrations provide extensive guidance. The attack should proceed where the best potential opportunities were provided.
The problem is that the VM peculiarities exist everywhere. So if we want the VM to link to a 'normal' text, excluding glossolalia and the like, we will have to get creative. And finding the right creative solution will mean solving the VM, so it won't be straightforward.
Peculiarities are everywhere, for sure. But is the VMs source authentic in its cultural origins, or is it synthetic and made to look peculiar intentionally. Being intentionally made to look peculiar, visual alteration, is a form of disguise and deception. Visual alteration can be shown in the cosmic comparison. Structure is retained, but appearance is altered. The extent of the attempt to alter images can be partly seen in the use of illustrations that combine two separate sources. Deception can be shown in the dual interpretation of White Aries.
If VMs text was going to link up to 'normal' text, the "plant monographs" would be a logical possibility. The difficulty / inability to make that happen is a major obstacle. The illustrations of the VMs are like a visual code. One of the medieval, visual systems that makes a part of that code is heraldry. Heraldry in the VMs is subtle, but potentially strategic. If understanding the cosmos or finding the Genoese Gambit relied on a knowledge of heraldry, then the path to a VMs solution, if it consists of a series of steps, will require heraldic interpretation.
The strange thing about the peculiarities is when something familiar is found in all that appears strange and exotic. It starts with the VMs cosmos. But there is more than just the suggestion of finding familiar ambiguity hidden in the VMs. There is the common factor of a generally shared provenance for a certain set of these ambiguous interpretations, which not only fits the VMs C-14 results, but can also be identified by various cultural examples, such as the Oresme cosmos, Melusine the mermaid, the Agnus Dei critter on a nebuly line, the double-rainbow throne and so on.
One of the biggest things hindering block searches is the lack of science (radiocarbon dating aside) being wheeled out by codicologists. It's only in a few sections that we can reconstruct the original order, which is why I'm focusing on Q13B at the moment.