(23-09-2025, 05:18 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wow, some of those are incredibly close.
Yes, and Marco also presented You are not allowed to view links.
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162 a bottle illustrating "De Virtutibus Aquae Vitae" ("De la virtude de laqua vitta")
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(23-09-2025, 04:06 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When it comes to herbals, I see similarities between the so-called “Alchemical Herbals” presented by @MarcoP and the VMS.
Indeed.
But, by the way, are there multiple independent "Alchemical Herbals", or just one original text that got copied and mutated many times?
The people who copied those books must have been aware that they were fictional hoaxes, and thus must have felt no scruples in adding their own fictional plants.
Like that plant whose juice makes iron so strong that it will cut any other iron. I wonder if there is a version of that book with another plant that will make iron so strong that it cannot be cut by any other iron...
All the best, --jorge
(23-09-2025, 06:00 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But, by the way, are there multiple independent "Alchemical Herbals", or just one original text that got copied and mutated many times?
Well, without having looked into it, I would guess that the former is the case, but I am happy to be convinced otherwise.
(23-09-2025, 06:00 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (23-09-2025, 04:06 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When it comes to herbals, I see similarities between the so-called “Alchemical Herbals” presented by @MarcoP and the VMS.
Indeed.
But, by the way, are there multiple independent "Alchemical Herbals", or just one original text that got copied and mutated many times?
The people who copied those books must have been aware that they were fictional hoaxes, and thus must have felt no scruples in adding their own fictional plants.
Like that plant whose juice makes iron so strong that it will cut any other iron. I wonder if there is a version of that book with another plant that will make iron so strong that it cannot be cut by any other iron...
All the best, --jorge
I just read Beasley’s article and it seems that there is an actual “tradition”in Northern Italy of these texts, whereby seven of the earliest seem to be directly based on a missing foundation text. The others are also probably indirectly related in turn though with unique features and content.
I’m not sure it matters in terms of the VMS though? Although I’m sure Beasley has already seen it, it might be worth directing him to the VMS for his opinion on whether it might, however tangentially, fit into this tradition, considering he’s already examined so many of the texts and plants.
(23-09-2025, 05:55 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (23-09-2025, 05:18 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wow, some of those are incredibly close.
Yes, and Marco also presented You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Among numerous depictions of plants, there is suddenly an interesting illustration:
162 a bottle illustrating "De Virtutibus Aquae Vitae" ("De la virtude de laqua vitta")
Oh, great catch. I read the Beasley article and he seems to prefer the term “magiferus” herbal to “alchemical” herbal. He has good points, but his examples emphasize the rarity of metal in the recipes. I’m not sure that follows all the way through, but I do wonder sometimes if researchers in their rarified contexts miss the point that alchemy by the late 14th century had mostly changed its goal and many of its processes to plants rather than metals. This all gets complicated by the fact that alchemy’s metaphorical language is often still couched in the search for the “stone” and older metal-based processes instead of aqua vita and medicine.
One thing that has really aroused my curiosity: I wonder about those cut off roots and whether finding them in an ms is a flag that we’re dealing with spagyric medicine (synonymous with alchemy). This is where each of the three parts of the plant- root, stem, flower-are reduced to ashes separately-operated on before being recombined to bring out their potency. Even when the root is not a cut-off, the VMS botanical system seems to really insist on this separation of root, stem, flower.
Nick Pelling's blog has a nice summary, including a link to Bryce Beasley's work and a list of alchemical herbals (February 2, 2025):
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(23-09-2025, 08:38 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even when the root is not a cut-off, the VMS botanical system seems to really insist on this separation of root, stem, flower.
I share this assumption and would even go so far as to suggest that these could be hybrid plants made up of precisely these parts.
(23-09-2025, 09:26 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nick Pelling's blog has a nice summary, including a link to Bryce Beasley's work and a list of alchemical herbals (February 2, 2025):
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(23-09-2025, 08:38 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even when the root is not a cut-off, the VMS botanical system seems to really insist on this separation of root, stem, flower.
I share this assumption and would even go so far as to suggest that these could be hybrid plants made up of precisely these parts.
Just followed your link to Nick’s site and Bryce had even posted in the comments section! But months ago…sigh…I am always late to the party. But I did ask him two questions on the slight hope he’ll read the comments again: 1) in his opinion, could the VMS, even tangentially, belong to this Northern Italian tradition of alchemical manuscripts? and 2) had he seen any similar patterns in other of these manuscripts where the distinction of plant parts was also so highly emphasized?
I’ll wait to see if I get a reply, and if not perhaps I’ll try to email him directly. If I do email him directly, you might have some questions you’d like me to ask as well so let me know.
Yes, could be hybrids. There’s some reason for it, at any rate!
Each of them seems almost grafted together, like Frankenstein’s monster. In my head I call all of them Frankensteins.
(23-09-2025, 08:38 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing that has really aroused my curiosity: I wonder about those cut off roots and whether finding them in an ms is a flag that we’re dealing with spagyric medicine (synonymous with alchemy). This is where each of the three parts of the plant- root, stem, flower-are reduced to ashes separately-operated on before being recombined to bring out their potency. Even when the root is not a cut-off, the VMS botanical system seems to really insist on this separation of root, stem, flower.
My explanation for those "cut-off" roots (that may overlap with spagyric theory) is that
(1) Some details of the Herbal drawings are copied from the Pharma pages, with the rest of the plant being either copied from other European herbals (including the "Alchemical Herbals") or invented outright by the Author or the Scribe.
(2) The Pharma pages were copied from some "pharmaceutical" book that did not depict the medicinal plants as seen in nature (as is generally the case in the European herbal tradition), but how it would be obtained from vegetable sellers, apothecaries and traders, either fresh or dried. That is, only the active parts of each plant (leaves, fruits, roots, according to the case) would be depicted. In the case of roots, the useless root branches would often be cut away, and long roots would be chopped into manageable pieces. The top of the root may have been kept, with a stub of the stem, or may be cut away too. And on those cut surfaces the original source may have shown the internal structure, such as a thick rind, a central pith, rings of veins...
I am guessing that most European herbals -- including the "alchemical herbals" -- apparently were composed under the assumption or pretension that the many or most readers would collect the plants themselves from the field; either for use on their patients, or on themselves. Hence the "naturalistic" drawing of full plants as seen in nature, with whole roots.
Makes sense?
All the best, --jorge
(23-09-2025, 11:14 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (23-09-2025, 08:38 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing that has really aroused my curiosity: I wonder about those cut off roots and whether finding them in an ms is a flag that we’re dealing with spagyric medicine (synonymous with alchemy). This is where each of the three parts of the plant- root, stem, flower-are reduced to ashes separately-operated on before being recombined to bring out their potency. Even when the root is not a cut-off, the VMS botanical system seems to really insist on this separation of root, stem, flower.
My explanation for those "cut-off" roots (that may overlap with spagyric theory) is that
(1) Some details of the Herbal drawings are copied from the Pharma pages, with the rest of the plant being either copied from other European herbals (including the "Alchemical Herbals") or invented outright by the Author or the Scribe.
(2) The Pharma pages were copied from some "pharmaceutical" book that did not depict the medicinal plants as seen in nature (as is generally the case in the European herbal tradition), but how it would be obtained from vegetable sellers, apothecaries and traders, either fresh or dried. That is, only the active parts of each plant (leaves, fruits, roots, according to the case) would be depicted. In the case of roots, the useless root branches would often be cut away, and long roots would be chopped into manageable pieces. The top of the root may have been kept, with a stub of the stem, or may be cut away too. And on those cut surfaces the original source may have shown the internal structure, such as a thick rind, a central pith, rings of veins...
I am guessing that most European herbals -- including the "alchemical herbals" -- apparently were composed under the assumption or pretension that the many or most readers would collect the plants themselves from the field; either for use on their patients, or on themselves. Hence the "naturalistic" drawing of full plants as seen in nature, with whole roots.
Makes sense?
All the best, --jorge
Yes it’s a possibility among others. Why not? From that article, the VMS is not really unusual when it comes to alchemical herbals and their authors’ variations on theme. But I m not sure that the differences between plant parts were unduly emphasized as in the VMS - it would be nteresting if they were. I’m not a medieval herbalist - have you seen any other illustrated manuscripts where the entire herbal is illustrated with this pattern of emphasis? Or conforms to your hypothesis?