(11-11-2024, 05:50 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (11-11-2024, 03:39 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What’s the thread, Matthias?
I'm not sure what you mean. First of all, in the absence of readable text in the VMS, we can only work through the illustrations. For me it was and is an essential endeavor to find my way through the sheer mass of alchemical illustrations as best I can. Every transfer to parts of the VMS presupposes that motifs of alchemical imagery are taken up and interpreted. Here it is good to have a work at hand that presents and explains illustrations over time and also emphasizes recurring "traditions" (please do not take this too literally!).
For example, one can try to interpret Quire 13 as a coherent, alchemical process. There are illustrations that immediately catch the eye. Here is an example:
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Then there are other illustrations that obviously show how substances are separated (without clear assignment):
Here the comparison to a "normal" representation in the "Liber de secretis naturae seu de quinta essentia" (1498, Pseudo-Lull):
So the work consists of assembling such fragments into an overall picture (step by step). That would be my theme, so to speak. Admittedly, I am still far away from a presentable result.
Sorry, I misunderstood, thought you had a separate thread somewhere I had not read. These are good comparisons and I think you are right. I also think there could almost be a “language” of pipe parts and the apparatus to which the nymphs are attached. For instance, in f83r, “mercury” on the right, is described as becoming Vapor using a tall funnel. Sulphur is attached to a red bucket fishtail likely signifying salt or body. So I think what each nymph rides is important: a few look like upside down stoves, for instance. Then there are the ones where the pipes look like sections of snakes or octopus/squid. That’s where one might look for the names of particular piping apparatus or a process for a play on words?
Btw, I found out that the “mercury” in the case of plant-based alchemy is almost always ethyl alcohol. Maybe you knew that, but I suddenly feel much clearer about it.
(11-11-2024, 06:24 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also think there could almost be a “language” of pipe parts and the apparatus to which the nymphs are attached.
Yes, there is, for example, a work that illustrates the sequence of the alchemical process in the margin of the text. Something like this could be seen as a template for the imagery in the VMS, which shows nymphs, tubes, basins and various "accessories" instead of containers, liquids and alchemical apparatus. As a language of its own, so to speak.
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attachment=9384]
Anonymous, Ymage de vie, plus miscellaneous alchemical receipts, Late 15th century, Folio 9r
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(11-11-2024, 07:54 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (11-11-2024, 06:24 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also think there could almost be a “language” of pipe parts and the apparatus to which the nymphs are attached.
Yes, there is, for example, a work that illustrates the sequence of the alchemical process in the margin of the text. Something like this could be seen as a template for the imagery in the VMS, which shows nymphs, tubes, basins and various "accessories" instead of containers, liquids and alchemical apparatus. As a language of its own, so to speak.
Anonymous, Ymage de vie, plus miscellaneous alchemical receipts, Late 15th century, Folio 9r
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Yes, nice. It’s a pity that Quire 13 is messed up. We might miss out on sequences. As it is, I wonder if a typology - grouping similar looking “vessels” and “pipes” together might be worthwhile. I just found another mermaid tail/fish you can barely see, it’s mixed up with blue. So that’s three of them, very possibly signifying the same thing.
nablator wrote in Post #325:
"So the VMs can be seen as the ultimate evolution in the "book of secrets" genre, removing the inconvenient revelation of unworkable principles of natural philosophy (theorica) and recipes (practica) altogether, keeping only the distilled essence of mystery."
How will we be able to distinguish such a person as the creator of this VMs section from some idiosyncratic nutter way out on a limb?
It's going to consist of fictional imaginings explained in allegories and euphemisms either way, isn't it?
Remember the pelican.
@bi3mw It occurs to me that the baths are possibly processes as well. The line-up of plant parts in the pharmaceutical section feels like a structural association with the line-ups of nymphs. If we regard the nymphs as substances, as I do and keep insisting on, then we could possibly regard the nymphs in baths as plant parts (I think this might also be related to certain nymphs looking like they are part of plant structures in non-pool pages).
Assuming this a true premise, then the actions and associations of the pool nymphs might give clues as to processes. For instance, in one pool they seem angry. Perhaps this represents boiling or agitation. In others, they resurrect, or multiply from pool to pool. Sometimes, the pool outline could be giving us a hint.
Now I know that mercury was ethyl alcohol usually in plant alchemy, and “sulphur” came from whatever plants you immersed in the alcohol, I’m starting to think almost all of the VMs is related, not just the balneological section.
So that’s something to look at as well.
(12-11-2024, 07:19 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@bi3mw It occurs to me that the baths are possibly processes as well. The line-up of plant parts in the pharmaceutical section feels like a structural association with the line-ups of nymphs. If we regard the nymphs as substances, as I do and keep insisting on, then we could possibly regard the nymphs in baths as plant parts (I think this might also be related to certain nymphs looking like they are part of plant structures in non-pool pages).
Assuming this a true premise, then the actions and associations of the pool nymphs might give clues as to processes. For instance, in one pool they seem angry. Perhaps this represents boiling or agitation. In others, they resurrect, or multiply from pool to pool. Sometimes, the pool outline could be giving us a hint.
Now I know that mercury was ethyl alcohol usually in plant alchemy, and “sulphur” came from whatever plants you immersed in the alcohol, I’m starting to think almost all of the VMs is related, not just the balneological section.
So that’s something to look at as well.
Yes, this view is possible. The different expressions of the nymphs are indeed there. I would say that this was the illustrator's intention and not incompetence. It would be worth checking whether the (facial) expressions can be grouped together or whether they are distributed differently across the folios.
The "poses" of the nymphs also seem worth mentioning. These seem limited and position-dependent.
(12-11-2024, 08:09 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (12-11-2024, 07:19 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@bi3mw It occurs to me that the baths are possibly processes as well. The line-up of plant parts in the pharmaceutical section feels like a structural association with the line-ups of nymphs. If we regard the nymphs as substances, as I do and keep insisting on, then we could possibly regard the nymphs in baths as plant parts (I think this might also be related to certain nymphs looking like they are part of plant structures in non-pool pages).
Assuming this a true premise, then the actions and associations of the pool nymphs might give clues as to processes. For instance, in one pool they seem angry. Perhaps this represents boiling or agitation. In others, they resurrect, or multiply from pool to pool. Sometimes, the pool outline could be giving us a hint.
Now I know that mercury was ethyl alcohol usually in plant alchemy, and “sulphur” came from whatever plants you immersed in the alcohol, I’m starting to think almost all of the VMs is related, not just the balneological section.
So that’s something to look at as well.
Yes, this view is possible. The different expressions of the nymphs are indeed there. I would say that this was the illustrator's intention and not incompetence. It would be worth checking whether the (facial) expressions can be grouped together or whether they are distributed differently across the folios.
The "poses" of the nymphs also seem worth mentioning. These seem limited and position-dependent.
Yes, indeed the poses. I agree!
Something along a more classical line. Just treating nymphs as nymphs, more or less. Nine nymphs in a tub might equate with the nine Muses. While the VMs presents examples of various numerical gatherings of nymphs, there is an independent secondary indicator to be found in the arcaded pattern on the side of the tub.
There is only that one VMs example of this pattern. It is partial and set back in a secondary position. What else can be done to disguise it? It can't be there and not there at the same time. It corresponds with the representation of the Muses and their arcaded tub in the Christine de Pizan illustration with Pegasus.
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Some of VMs artistry operates on a system of validation based on pairing. Pairing is derived from the duplicate laws of Deuteronomy. The pairing for the Muses in the VMs is found in the nine Nymphs of Abacus in the tub of 16 on f81v.
There is a certain sense of humor, a certain sophistication or a bit of trickery to be found in other VMs illustrations from the cosmos to the Zodiac sequence, to costmary or the mermaid Melusine. The VMs artist goes beyond disguise to include duality and deception. There's a puzzle to be solved. The path is marked by pairing.
Thank you - that’s a nice match. I always think of that one as the “Roman” Bath because of the architectural components. Not on You are not allowed to view links.
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Still, it doesn’t dissuade me from using an alchemical framework. The VMs author wanted viewers to see the nymphs as females in baths. Basing one of the baths possibly on an existing illustration could be part of that goal. Or there might be an added symbolic layer. But for me, the muses, if such theyare would be part of the disguise, not the reveal.
I’m like you, only more so. I think the authors are deceptive, sophisticated and with a sense of humour. I love Cornelius Agrippa. Did you ever read, Declamation on the Nobility and Pre-eminence of the Female Sex? Laugh out loud funny. “Oh, ye hairy ones!” If the VMs had been written a hundred years later he would be my prime suspect, not only because I like man, but because he dabbled in all the areas the text displays, including alchemy, cryptography and language. So I tend to envision someone like him as the author, having a good laugh as he devised this nefarious text designed to drive its readers crazy.