(17-12-2024, 09:51 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That must be why mythical Melusine is popping out of her fishy wetsuit.
Or devoured by the fish/serpent/dragon.
Last emblem (L) of the Atalanta Fugiens (1617): You are not allowed to view links.
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Article:
The Alchemical Grammar of the Voynich Manuscript: A Reconstruction of a Celestial, Botanical, and Ritual Language
I can't quite make sense of the paper, it seems a bit superficial to me. Maybe someone else can do something with it.
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I have seen this somewhere. It looks like a typical chat bot product.
I think that the vagueness is due to the fact that both the AI bot and the person reporting on it don't actually understand what is being said.
In this short video, which does not offer much in terms of content, the following statement is made (0:50):
Quote:A theory links the manuscript to German alchemist Hieronymus Reusner and his work "Pandora".
Link to Digitalsat:
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A direct connection to Reusner's work is not possible, as it was not published until 1588. The only reference to the theory mentioned can be found on You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view.. Adam D. Morris does not appear to have published anything himself, or has someone else more luck in a search than I have?
Quote:Alchemy expert Adam McLean has also studied Reusner’s Pandora, and concludes that it is the coloured drawings in The University of Basel, MS L IV 1, UB (entitled ‘Alchemistisches Manuscript’) that were very probably “the original for the woodcuts in Reusner’s ‘Pandora’, rather than their being directly derived from an early manuscript of the ‘Buch der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit’.”
However, I find the similarities in the illustrations between German MS 1 and L IV 1 very remarkable. Most of them are; here is one example:
[
attachment=11086]
John Rylands Library, Buch der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit, Alchemica (German MS 1), 15th century
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Universitätsbibliothek Basel, Alchemistische Sammlung, L IV 1,1550
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So here we have motifs that appear continuously from the 15th century to 1588. The origin is the “Book of the Holy Trinity.” If one wants to establish a connection with the VMS, then one would have to refer to this manuscript and not to Reusner's Pandora.
(29-07-2025, 12:37 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In this short video, which does not offer much in terms of content, the following statement is made (0:50):
Quote:A theory links the manuscript to German alchemist Hieronymus Reusner and his work "Pandora".
Link to Digitalsat:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
A direct connection to Reusner's work is not possible, as it was not published until 1588. The only reference to the theory mentioned can be found on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Adam D. Morris does not appear to have published anything himself, or has someone else more luck in a search than I have?
Quote:Alchemy expert Adam McLean has also studied Reusner’s Pandora, and concludes that it is the coloured drawings in The University of Basel, MS L IV 1, UB (entitled ‘Alchemistisches Manuscript’) that were very probably “the original for the woodcuts in Reusner’s ‘Pandora’, rather than their being directly derived from an early manuscript of the ‘Buch der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit’.”
However, I find the similarities in the illustrations between German MS 1 and L IV 1 very remarkable. Most of them are; here is one examp
John Rylands Library, Buch der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit, Alchemica (German MS 1), 15th century
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Universitätsbibliothek Basel, Alchemistische Sammlung, L IV 1,1550
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So here we have motifs that appear continuously from the 15th century to 1588. The origin is the “Book of the Holy Trinity.” If one wants to establish a connection with the VMS, then one would have to refer to this manuscript and not to Reusner's Pandora.
Exactly. I still find it surprising that people dismiss potential alchemy in the VMS because its illustrations don’t resemble other alchemical illustrations. But when the VMS was created, there was no alchemical illustration history to refer to aside from a few drawings of lab vessels. The VMS, the Book of the Holy Trinity, and the Aurora Consurgens are all from the same time period and similar locations (Germany, Austria, and in VMS’s case, likely Germany) The latter two’s pictures get regurgitated for centuries, but not so the VMS. Of course no other alchemical illustrations resemble it. The images likely would have been based on similar concepts to the other two - location, time period - but they would look different, based on figurative language not image.
Which is why it would be far more productive to actually read the main alchemy texts rather than look at alchemical illustrations, which in any case would have been drawn too late. They’re boring as hell, but not so bad when you’ve got a purpose. Many of them were written in vers (rhymed endings). Some included repetitive incantations (ochokedy choked choked t). All included metaphorical language. Most had transitioned in this time period from the search for gold to the search for the elixir of life and various health remedies aimed at prolonging life, but the metaphors for the processes were still couched in the same philosopher’s stone language. Most alchemists were well-educated, many were monks and deeply religious. Some of the most well-known were considered prophets, particularly prophets of the apocalypse. The quintessence or water of life was the main goal, predicated on pseudo-Arnauld de Villanova, pseudo-Bacon, Rupescissa. Most of them were quoting wise men of the past - Avicenna, Aristotle, Geber, pseudo-Dionysus, Mercurius(Hermes), Galen, Zosimus, Maria etc. Almost all of them were referencing Ovid as an icon of transmutation. And most of them were equating the process of transmutation with the process of Christ’s death and resurrection. Lastly, at a time when heresy was on the rise, a surprising number of them seem to have been accused of it and imprisoned, not for alchemy but for heresy.
So for myself, these are the strands of thought and concepts particular to alchemy in exactly this time period and location, so if this were a medico-alchemical text it should show signs of many if not all of these concepts as well as practical alchemy itself.
Which brings us to the rosettes page … lol.
(11-08-2025, 07:56 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I still find it surprising that people dismiss potential alchemy in the VMS because its illustrations don’t resemble other alchemical illustrations.
In fact, I seem to remember that even Adam McLean rejected a (partially) alchemical interpretation of the VMS for this reason.
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I consider the fact that the VMS cannot be forced into any alchemical tradition to be less problematic. The depiction of processes, mainly in Quire 13, is, in my opinion, “free style,” and it is only the correct interpretation of the (step-by-step) processes that matters. Some of the illustrations certainly allow for this.
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(11-08-2025, 07:56 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Most of them were quoting wise men of the past ...
I just started a You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view.to old authorities in herbals. This question is also interesting in an alchemical context, and I would say that such references were quite common. If anyone is looking for cribs to deciphering the VMS, I think that's where they're most likely to find them
(11-08-2025, 10:59 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (11-08-2025, 07:56 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I still find it surprising that people dismiss potential alchemy in the VMS because its illustrations don’t resemble other alchemical illustrations.
In fact, I seem to remember that even Adam McLean rejected a (partially) alchemical interpretation of the VMS for this reason.
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I consider the fact that the VMS cannot be forced into any alchemical tradition to be less problematic. The depiction of processes, mainly in Quire 13, is, in my opinion, “free style,” and it is only the correct interpretation of the (step-by-step) processes that matters. Some of the illustrations certainly allow for this.
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(11-08-2025, 07:56 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Most of them were quoting wise men of the past ...
I just started a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.to old authorities in herbals. This question is also interesting in an alchemical context, and I would say that such references were quite common. If anyone is looking for cribs to deciphering the VMS, I think that's where they're most likely to find them
Yes, that statement by McLean is the one I find most surprising.
There are quite a few illustrations that could be based on alchemical instruments and containers, but none of them are exact as if made purposefully vague. I think there’s a good chance the illustrator starts with the alchemical container/instrument but then stylizes it for double or triple meaning. Add scales to tubing, for example, and you have a snake. As I believe the image you present is part of an Ovidian tale, Myrrha, you end up with connotations of both sex and alchemical process.
I am so with you reregarding collecting references. A marvellous idea.Im not so sure of the herbal focus. I’d love, and I’m sure many would, a list of the canonical university textbooks of the time, and also specialized medical texts that were widely read. Alchemical references would be grand too, but I think it would be up to you and I to find them as we don’t have many interested in the topic on here!
(23-09-2025, 04:26 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am so with you reregarding collecting references. A marvellous idea.Im not so sure of the herbal focus.
When it comes to herbals, I see similarities between the so-called “Alchemical Herbals” presented by @MarcoP and the VMS. Both the stylistic structure of roots, stems, leaves, and flowers as well as certain details show this similarities. For example, the depiction of faces in root tubers is a clear match ( You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. ). The distinctive roots with the “attached” stems are also shown. I would have to study the subject in more detail to be able to classify the Alchemical Herbals in relation to the VMS in terms of time, but there are at least examples from the 15th century ( e.g., Firenze Riccardiana You are not allowed to view links.
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(23-09-2025, 04:06 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (23-09-2025, 04:26 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am so with you reregarding collecting references. A marvellous idea.Im not so sure of the herbal focus.
When it comes to herbals, I see similarities between the so-called “Alchemical Herbals” presented by @MarcoP and the VMS. Both the stylistic structure of roots, stems, leaves, and flowers as well as certain details show this similarities. For example, the depiction of faces in root tubers is a clear match ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ). The distinctive roots with the “attached” stems are also shown. I would have to study the subject in more detail to be able to classify the Alchemical Herbals in relation to the VMS in terms of time, but there are at least examples from the 15th century ( e.g., Firenze Riccardiana You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., 1463-1499 and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ).
Wow, some of those are incredibly close. I can see why you’re doing this work. What differentiates “alchemical herbals” from regular herbals of the time period? I’m imagining it has something to do with spagyric medicine but don’t know if medieval herbals had this as a focus?
Honestly, Paracelsus is a bitch sometimes. He labels things, like “spagyric”, but you’re told the concept or method has been around for centuries. Same as with his “prima tria”: he includes salt along with sulphur and mercury as the third component but was this just a formal labelling, because sources say salt was always included, just not given the primacy of the other two.
It really matters when trying to disentangle images. The mermaid tail/suit, for instance: post Paracelsus I’d have no hesitation in seeing this as a metaphor for “salt”, when the other two to me are so recognizably sulphur and mercury. But pre-Paracelsus, you would have to write an article showing all the other sources where salt was playing it’s part in a prima tria without being labeled as such.