The Voynich Ninja

(30-10-2024, 02:48 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(30-10-2024, 02:16 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.From the Rosarium Philosophorum You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: "Of Our Mercury which is the Green Lion Devouring the Sun".

Quote:Vitriol is the most important liquid in alchemy, bar none, serving as a catalyst for all subsequent reactions. It was distilled from an oily, green sulphate substance that formed naturally from the weathering of sulfur-bearing gravel. This Green Vitriol is symbolized by the Green Lion in alchemical drawings.....

Vitriol is the popular (wrong) interpretation after Basile Valentin, fake 15th century alchemist (actually 17th century).

Wrong because You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. does not dissolve gold. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. does, but it is not green. So it is neither.

(30-10-2024, 03:02 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Vitriol is the popular (wrong) interpretation after Basile Valentin, fake 15th century alchemist (actually 17th century).

Quote:Vitriols, known today as sulfates of divalent metals, played an important role in the development of modern chemical and metallurgical practice, and engaged the speculation of alchemists and mineralogists. The natural occurrence of vitriols and its earliest recognition as a distinct group of related minerals is discussed. The unique position of vitriols was codified in al-Rází's (854-925/935 AD) classification of mineral substances.

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Abū Bakr al-Rāzī (full name: أبو بکر محمد بن زکریاء الرازي, Abū Bakr Muḥammad ibn Zakariyyāʾ al-Rāzī),[a] c. 864 or 865–925 or 935 CE, often known as (al-)Razi or by his Latin name Rhazes, also rendered Rhasis, was a Persian physician, philosopher and alchemist who lived during the Islamic Golden Age.

Well, the characteristics attributed to vitriol (dissolving) don't necessarily have to correspond to the facts AFAIK green vitriol actually dissolved almost all substances except gold.

(30-10-2024, 02:16 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(23-10-2024, 10:02 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why the green water?  In many alchemical emblems of the hermaphrodite, s/he is standing upon a green dragon.  The VMS green pool is not dragon-shaped, but nevertheless probably identifies for us the same thing: prima materia.  The rebis, hermaphrodite, arises from prima materia.  This is possibly thematic of the whole balneological section, blue water is heavenly, green is earthly prima materia from which the heavenly water must be distilled.

Hi Barbrey,

About the green water... The hermaphrodite/rebis is standing upon a dragon in the Buch der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit, but the dragon is not green. Its back is covered with something green. Is it a weird wing or a leaf? A typical illustration: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I suppose it could be identified/confounded with the green lion in Morienus' Liber de compositione Alchemiae (that calls it a glass), illustrated in the Rosarium Philosophorum (1550):



The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (17th century) is certainly green but there is no hermaphrodite standing on it. Confusing imagery, as always. Is it the Water or Mercury of the Philosophers and also the prima materia? Maybe.

From the Rosarium Philosophorum You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: "Of Our Mercury which is the Green Lion Devouring the Sun". I have not looked for the source for this part yet - the Rosarium, as its name indicates, is a hodgepodge of various texts, quoted without attribution.

Quote:In the first of the sequence, the fountain pours forth the three substances that supposedly flow from the centre of the soul. These are 'Lac Virginis' (the Virgin's milk), 'Acetum fontis' (the spring of vinegar) and 'Aqua Vitae' (the water of life). The latter represents the force within man, that which originally exists. The other two represent, once again, a contribution from both the feminine, receptive, lunar forces, and those of the penetrating, sharp, solar male. These mingle and mix in the lower part of the soul - the fountain's basin - and the substance created is known as the water of Mercury. The latter stages of the alchemical process take place in these waters.

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Hi nablator!  You have to remember that the Book of the Holy Trinity seems to have about 20 different versions - I try if I can to use the earliest, the Munich version, which Barbara Obrist dated to 1420. In the version you have here, that’s not the earliest and not the standard hermaphrodite illustration, the Buch has a few illustrating different principles. Adam McLean calls this one the Luciferic hermaphrodite and it has different properties, and that’s indeed a green wing. Nevertheless, in the Munich version, the dragon is green, as are most subsequent dragons going forward. 

Generally, if a dragon is not eating its tail, green or not, it symbolizes prima materia. I say generally because you are right, consistency in alchemical symbolism is not a strong point among 15th century alchemists, especially at this early date. As bi3mw mentions, and I concur, the VMS was likely written at a time before alchemical manuscripts were becoming illustrated aside from a few pieces of alchemical equipment and the ouroborous as in Zosimus (Obrist again). That leaves the VMS authors somewhat free to make up their own images within the constraints of the alchemical processes themselves. For instance, the hermaphrodite in alchemical emblems was almost always two-headed, but in sculpture the hermaphrodite was usually portrayed as a female or youth with both genitals. I find this really interesting because it suggests the VMS authors were unaware of, or writing before, the alchemical two-headed hermaphrodite emblem became foundational for alchemical illustrations, starting with the Buch and Aurora Consurgens. But they are all working with the same ideas.

I’ve seen speculation regarding the green lion and dragon being conflated, but no confirmation, and to my mind they are almost opposite in idea. One is an operation or operating substance like vitriol or aqua Regis;the other is a substance that is operated upon. Still, I am not an alchemist, perhaps I’m missing something.

These last few posts caught my eye, so i will cheekily add my two penn'orth.
1. Alchemical allegories and symbolism were always deliberately a bit vague / obscure / ambiguous.
2. Chemical reactions can be greatly affected by even small amount of impurities and back then i imagine having pure reagents was not so simple.

In this link the author suggests that,
 "a green dragon devouring the Sun means that the gold was dissolved in aqua regia"..."the gold probably contained copper, which turns the acid blue-green"
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In this short  video "Gold Chemistry: Gold in Aqua Regia"[ 41s ]  by "Colorful Chemistry" . YT link -> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
the green color of the solution can be seen, and a chemical explanation is in the video description, ( copper impurites in gold foil are suggested ).

Whilst here on the alchemy website animal symbolism page ->https://alchemywebsite.com/animal.html
we are informed that  "Green Lion was usually a name for vitriol",   but also that   "The Green Lion devouring the sun ...can be thought of as aqua regia dissolving the solar gold".

There are also the 2 meanings of "green lion" that the vegetable matter alchemists use , 'plant sap' is one, 'the raw energy of nature' is the other (see alchemywebsite link).

@Barbrey: Here are a few interesting aspects on the representation of hermaphrodites in alchemy ( reference to your post #233 ). I translated the paper from German to English using Deepl ( so it's not perfect but good enough ) :



ACHIM AURNHAMMER, The hermaphrodite in the symbolic art of the alchemists


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(30-10-2024, 04:52 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi nablator!  You have to remember that the Book of the Holy Trinity seems to have about 20 different versions - I try if I can to use the earliest, the Munich version, which Barbara Obrist dated to 1420.

BSB Cgm 598 I suppose? There are several pictures of the hermaphrodite+dragon from various mss. of the Book of the Holy Trinity in Barbara Obrist's book Les débuts de l’imagerie alchimique but not from this one. In which book/article did you find the 1420 date? If it is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it is the Nürnberg ms. 80061 that is dated 1420 so it is the earlier one maybe. It is the one that I linked in my post.

On the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. they date the Munich ms. to the second half of the 14th century.

Quote:[...] Munich BSB, cgm. 598, which can be dated after 1467

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On the Wikimedia page that displays the double-headed androgyne + dragon, 1417 (no other source has the 1417 date, so it is probably an error). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:Nevertheless, in the Munich version, the dragon is green, as are most subsequent dragons going forward.

The dragons are very similar (because one ms. is a copy of the other) and only the wing is green on these pages:

[attachment=9362]

[attachment=9363]
Am I looking at the wrong pages or the wrong manuscript?

Quote:Adam McLean calls this one the Luciferic hermaphrodite and it has different properties, and that’s indeed a green wing.

"Hermaphrodite" and "androgyne" are not good descriptions of what actually looks like conjoined twins in the Aurora consurgens and a crowned two-headed monster with wings (therefore "Luciferian") in the Buch der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit.

There is alchemy in Voynich Science Manuscript. 
The author, being a healer, needed medications. He used not only the plants as it is in the first part, but also created some. And he created some, according his knowledge and training.
Actually I cannot understand the blog of being deprived of  Alchemy section. 
The ancient alchemy is the today's pharmacy, chemistry, astrology, paintings colours, mining, cooking, metallurgy  etc. 
In other words: I respect Alchemy and do not denigrate it, as being ironized by our generation and its scientists.
Also there are proofs from the text too.
 If one looks at 67 v1,2, what is your impression? 
Complete process of chemistry, isn't it? There are other examples too as above mentioned.
BR

(28-10-2024, 09:53 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don’t remember, R. Sale, and the free copy of the article I found has been taken down. It’s $40 on Brill (which my small college’s library does not have access to).

Which article are you referring to?

Variously colored dragons in the Book of the Holy Trinity:
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Quote:Let us first look at the Antichrist, Diabolic or Luciferic hermaphrodite, and we will here use the illuminated image from possibly the earliest version that in Nürnberg, Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Hs. 80061, dated to 1420 by the scholar Barbara Obrist, and on the right that of the beautifully illuminated manuscript in Munich which is some fifty years later. The figure is entitled 'Contra justiciam' (against justice).

Cutest little monster ever to replace the dragon (not green, with two heads and lion's legs) (1517)
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So identifying the green pool that is not shaped like a dragon with a dragon/monster that is not generally green is a bit risky.

My favorite dragon (if you can even call it that).
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