(05-12-2016, 09:03 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....yet time and again they fit into a consistent pattern...
Bunny
Bunny, much of the time that is because humans are trying to make sense of them in terms that are familiar to us, just as different people will often see the same faces and castles when they look at clouds.
(06-12-2016, 02:51 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (05-12-2016, 09:03 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....yet time and again they fit into a consistent pattern...
Bunny
Bunny, much of the time that is because humans are trying to make sense of them in terms that are familiar to us, just as different people will often see the same faces and castles when they look at clouds.
I understand, the pareidolia effect of images is well known and probably applies to many of the tiny shadow images/text found on the parchment, and in relation text translation to imagery. Also if one is led by image subject matter one may subconsciously be fitting any translated text to the images. The difficulty comes when pure text is also translated without relevance to the subject matter or time of the manuscript, and that does also happen and the results are within the definition of a pattern from unrelated researchers. I know this is not within the realm of academic methods of research, but the results do show this pattern of relevance, with or without imagery, with or without expectation of the subject matter. For many years results of this nature have been dismissed and I am bringing them together with the possibility of an explanation.
Bunny
JKP makes a very good point. Humans want to make sense of things when they are overwhelmed. This happens when we see MS Beinecke 408, because we don't understand much of it. It happens with images, but also with narratives and interpretations of complex phenomena. This is why conspiracy theories are basically all the same. Why religions are basically all the same. Why a devastating wave of populism is spreading across the western world in these days of economic uncertainty and mass migration.
It's human nature. We look for an explanation, an easy solution. And those solutions are often the same, because we all have the same primate brains in our skulls.
In science, we try to shield ourselves from those biases that are present in all of our minds. We impose upon ourselves rigorous methods and limitations. If we, knowingly or not, cast off the armor of science, we all get exposed to the same human biases. That is why so many Voynich "theories" smell the same. They are reached by following the path of least resistance, and rushing towards the comfort of catch-all solutions.
That is why in so many solutions you get semi-grammatical strings of words that don't really tell much, but still enough to allow one to form some kind of narrative. Research into historical practice, custom and linguistics is not necessary, because the tools of science have been left at the entrance.
Open up an online scan of a "normal" English manuscript from the 15th century. Read it. Translate it. Notice that you get in trouble in the first line, and are not able to do it without consulting other sources. That is why I have a hard time taking serious all those people who claim that they can translate paragraphs from the VM at a whim.
(06-12-2016, 10:23 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP makes a very good point. Humans want to make sense of things when they are overwhelmed. This happens when we see MS Beinecke 408, because we don't understand much of it. It happens with images, but also with narratives and interpretations of complex phenomena. This is why conspiracy theories are basically all the same. Why religions are basically all the same. Why a devastating wave of populism is spreading across the western world in these days of economic uncertainty and mass migration.
It's human nature. We look for an explanation, an easy solution. And those solutions are often the same, because we all have the same primate brains in our skulls.
In science, we try to shield ourselves from those biases that are present in all of our minds. We impose upon ourselves rigorous methods and limitations. If we, knowingly or not, cast off the armor of science, we all get exposed to the same human biases. That is why so many Voynich "theories" smell the same. They are reached by following the path of least resistance, and rushing towards the comfort of catch-all solutions.
That is why in so many solutions you get semi-grammatical strings of words that don't really tell much, but still enough to allow one to form some kind of narrative. Research into historical practice, custom and linguistics is not necessary, because the tools of science have been left at the entrance.
Open up an online scan of a "normal" English manuscript from the 15th century. Read it. Translate it. Notice that you get in trouble in the first line, and are not able to do it without consulting other sources. That is why I have a hard time taking serious all those people who claim that they can translate paragraphs from the VM at a whim.
I'm not it's all on a whim and some have been very esteemed figures and worked for a long time on the manuscript.
It is true as you explain that it does become hard instantly to translate even a normal manuscript beyond the first line, a word standing alone may not have the context meant understood and some may be the same words with different alternative meanings sending the translator off on the wrong mind set from the start. This is all agreed on, and that there is no comparative manuscript makes it all the more difficult to follow the process through. It does not explain how poetry for example rather than semi-grammatical strings of words are part of the findings and the labels which often seem to match the images produced by a consistent method.
Each to their own though, and it should really not bother anyone who thinks it is not a serious approach. On the subject of pure science and traditional academic approach though, there does seem to be enough solid plant identifications put forwards that should have made approaching the text in a traditional manner. Not sure why this has not been seized on more yet and why possible results not put forwards.
Bunny
(06-12-2016, 06:58 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
...On the subject of pure science and traditional academic approach though, there does seem to be enough solid plant identifications put forwards that should have made approaching the text in a traditional manner. Not sure why this has not been seized on more yet and why possible results not put forwards.
Bunny
This has been seized on very frequently. It's the basis for many attempts at translation. The reason there have not been more possible results reported is because the text has not yielded to normal decryption methods, or to more contemporary computational attacks, nor to many original attempts at translation and... it has not yet been proven that there is meaning behind the text. It is not structured like natural language in some important respects, so there's something different going on here that is not yet fully understood.
(06-12-2016, 08:19 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (06-12-2016, 06:58 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
...On the subject of pure science and traditional academic approach though, there does seem to be enough solid plant identifications put forwards that should have made approaching the text in a traditional manner. Not sure why this has not been seized on more yet and why possible results not put forwards.
Bunny
This has been seized on very frequently. It's the basis for many attempts at translation. The reason there have not been more possible results reported is because the text has not yielded to normal decryption methods, or to more contemporary computational attacks, nor to many original attempts at translation and... it has not yet been proven that there is meaning behind the text. It is not structured like natural language in some important respects, so there's something different going on here that is not yet fully understood.
That is all true. I will be explaining why I think this is in my hypothesis soon, but in the meantime I have been working on other areas and the main hypothesis is stored in my head rather than on paper yet.
Atm I am just about to release some work on f67v2 which has side-lined me briefly. It is complete now, I just have to do final read through and list of images. It will be released on vms-list first via OneDrive, for no other reason than I have been part of that circle of Voynich discussion for years.
Bunny
Hi all,
I decided to create a new cipher and target f67r2, because I believe the secret to a key for the VMS is easier with this approach. I do believe the VMS is in some sort of gematria cipher using English as the main language. It is interesting that I have found this much information within the VMS using this new incomplete cipher. There are three words that are not in the gematria website which should be updated, but do have a number equivalence to the cipher. They are the words or phrases with the number next to them. The link leads to a gematria English letter counter. Refer to my cipher and the English letters then input the letter into the gematria counter. The cipher word should equal the English equivalent number once fully inputted. Regarding Eros and Sacrifice I refer you to this great constellation website.
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Also check out my new profile image it has a date and what I call a gematria symbol. Gematria comes from the word Geometry and in the image are two equilateral triangles, that’s fascinating.
![[Image: f67zodiac.png]](https://voynichgematria.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/f67zodiac.png)
Simply click on a word or phrase and it will show the code behind the word or phrase. Then do a search for the terms using the find in your upper right google find bar for the phrase or search word in the Gematria list of words and phrases. The code word corresponds from the letters to the voynich glyph’s in my cipher from the Voynich Gematria chart in the Zodiac.
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(10-12-2016, 06:20 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi all,
[massive quote removed by Koen G.]
Not sure how t works but will give it a try when I have time. I do think English is a component but not the only one (language) and would like to see the Welsh (crazy as it sounds as having any relevance to a C15th manuscript!) translations not abandoned. Specifically it would be interesting to see English and Welsh translations done for the same folios would be a very interesting comparison, would the subject matter change, or stay the same if even possible?
Bunny
(10-12-2016, 12:13 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[massive quote AGAIN removed by Koen G. Think of our scroll wheels people.]
P.S. Forgot to mention Eros has connection to the original word Eres meaning the world/ground/place/grave. Eres may not fit the gametria letter by letter but it is its origin.
It seems there is so much varied information coming out from you that we may drown under it without understanding it. Do take some time to see how all your various results may fit together as a whole. You mention the diagram/date image, the triangles I have seen before but you don't mention how you derive the date. This date was also found previously by another researcher in relation to astronomy, an so is not easily dismissed.
Bunny
Thank you Bunny and Stellar. I'll look over the work tomorrow since it's late now.