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Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
- Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
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Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
julian > 12-10-2016, 06:11 AM
I've been down a bit of rabbit hole over the last couple of days which others may have already been down. In particular I think Marco posted about Alfonso X's Lapidario before, but from that thread I'm not sure how deeply he investigated, as the thread petered out.
I was looking once more at the Zodiac folios, in particular Taurus. The Taurus Light and Dark folios are both marked "may" in, as often remarked, a later hand. There are 15 figures in each Taurus folio, for a total of 30. However, as we well know, May has 31 days, so the figures probably don't represent days. I thus went in search of 30-way splits of Zodiac signs ....
Looking at the old Spanish illustrated manuscript:
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which is a treatise on astrology and the importance of stones/gems etc., we can see a circular Taurus diagram with 30 divisions. Each of these divisions is associated with a stone, of a noted colour, and one or a few stars in a constellation. There is a lengthy description of each division, it's stone, its stars, the various ailments the stone cures, when the stone should be used et cetera. There is a Spanish transcription of the text here, which I found very useful (combined with Google Translate):
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Since a plausible language match to the month spellings as written in the Zodiac folios is Occitan, a region of Spain., there seems to be a compelling regional match here, but I can't quite figure it out. From what I read, Alfonso X assembled a team of scholars from all world regions, who worked on documents on a variety of topics. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says of the Lapidario: "The Lapidario is a thirteenth century Castilian translation sponsored by King Alfonso X el Sabio, the Learned. The translation was done from an Arabic text which in turn is said to have been translated by the mysterious Abolays from an ancient text in the "Chaldean language""
Anyway, my first approach was to try to match the colours of the headgear or tunics of the clothed figures in the Taurus Light folio to the colours of the first and second fifteen stones mentioned in the Lapidario. It's a little tricky, because although the stones are numbered, we don't know which is figure 1 in the Taurus Light folio, and whether the inner ring precedes the outer. Even so, the patterns of colours in the stones sequence might reveal a match. I drew a blank.
My second approach was to try to match the names of the stones with the labels on the figures, to see if there was some correlation between the label length, or its initial glyph, with the stones' names. Very tricky.
Some of the stones that appear in the Taurus set of 30 also appear in other Zodiac signs in the Lapidario. For example, the ninth stone in Taurus is "esmeri(l)", and esmeril is also the third stone of Libra, and the second stone of Aquarius.
This leads to the obvious question: is there a Figure in the both the Voynich Taurus and Libra roundels (Aquarius is missing) that shares the same label? If so, might that label be "esmeril"? And, are there other stones that appear in more than one sign which might be matched to duplicate stones in the Lapidario?
As an aside, regarding the stones and colours, I was struck by the third stone of Taurus, called "camorica", which is scarlet in colour and associated with the Pleiades.
Has anyone else looked at all this before and found anything more concrete?! -
RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
david > 12-10-2016, 08:21 AM
Hi Julian!
A few years ago I went over this link with a toothcomb but couldn't come up with anything concrete. However, I feel sure that there is a tradition link there, inasmuch as the VM author was influenced by the same Arabic traditions that Alfonso X translated, and may very well have seen and read a copy of the Lapidario (and its sister manuscripts, which were all popular in the 15th and 16th centuries across Western Europe).
BTW, Occitania is mainly southern France, not modern day Spain, although its linguistic influence extended slightly into modern day Catalonia. The language has no connection with the MS.
The influences of the book are ancient Greek, Hellenistic and Arabian. These disparate works were collated by Arab scholars into medieval works of reference, which Alfonso X later ordered translated into Castillian. The lapidario contains the reference to Chaldaen because of the compiler Abolays, who compiled part of the source manuscripts in Arab and left that note.
The names of the stones you are looking at are wrong, by the way. You're looking at a Latin translation given by the translators, not the original Arabic names that illustrate the chapters. The original MS always uses a latinized version of the Arabic names, and where possible gives the Castillian or Latin name, or the name given by other ancient races.
Remember that the book was unique in shying away from Latin, and instead being translated straight into the vernacular. Alfonso X refused to translate into Latin, saying that the knowledge gained from the Arabs should be given to all of his people and ensured that everything was written into Castillian (which is still easily readable by any fluent Spanish speaker).
I have a copy of the 1970's critical study of the Lapidario by María Brey Mariano (frustratingly, it only gives partial redrawn copies of the illustrations! but it gives a very complete rendering of the four books) and the ninth stone of Taurus is "zumberic" . Its Latin name is given as esmeril (emerald). No Castillian name is given.
It's not repeated anywhere according to María Brey, although it does reappear in Zamorat, Castillian esmeralda, 12th sign of Taurus (although this is a scribal error, it should be Zamoricaz or "stone of the hermits").
The eighth stone of Taurus, for example, is called meneffi and no Latin name is given, although the text notes the Egyptians "from where the stone is found" also call it mardican "which is the same as calling it adormecedor" (Castillian for "sleep-maker").
The third stone of Libra is given as algueña (second variety of sea foam), which María Brey says is algamarina (a type of seaweed), or in Chaldean gacora. All of the Libra stones appear to come from the sea - the first, for example, is a dried sea sponge.
And the second stone of Aquarius is Marurya (Marunia), "a green stone found in Africa on the banks of a large river in the sands of a large beach".
Hope this helps! -
RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
MarcoP > 12-10-2016, 08:39 AM
Hi Julian,
Darren Worley has recently posted some very interesting images on the site of Stephen Bax:
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Darren Worley Wrote:I found several woodcut images of gemstones that look very like the objects that the nymphs/ladies are holding in the VM Zodiac section. Perhaps these figures are holding gemstones, rather than stars, or perhaps these objects symbolise both?
(BTW, I only now notice that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I referenced one of the books he mentions - the 1491 Hortus Sanitatis).
I briefly mentioned Alfonso's Lapidario in 2014:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
As Rene wrote in his comment to Darren's post, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is another similar Alfonsine ms that is of great interest for Voynich research.
I agree that this is one of the most promising lines of investigation. As always, there is no trivial match with the VMS, but there could well be some deeper relation we haven't understood yet. -
RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
Koen G > 12-10-2016, 09:20 AM
Marco, the Vatican manuscript you posted looks interesting, but I can't see the images, am I the only one to get this error?
Resource load failure. id:http://digi.vatlib.it/iiifimage/MSS_Reg.lat.1283.pt.A/2_0-AD2_afd749eb76ea6c9687228b0073ca712a31aa533d81bcdff4d13e42a012fcb937_1476346707626_Reg.lat.1283.pt.A_0015_fa_0003r.jp2 -
RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
MarcoP > 12-10-2016, 10:01 AM
(12-10-2016, 09:20 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco, the Vatican manuscript you posted looks interesting, but I can't see the images, am I the only one to get this error?
Resource load failure. id:http://digi.vatlib.it/iiifimage/MSS_Reg.lat.1283.pt.A/2_0-AD2_afd749eb76ea6c9687228b0073ca712a31aa533d81bcdff4d13e42a012fcb937_1476346707626_Reg.lat.1283.pt.A_0015_fa_0003r.jp2
The BAV site malfunctions from time to time. Try again later.
I guess that is the ms referenced by Mrs Voynich when discussing You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.'s first inspection of images of the VMS:
He at once recognised it as bearing a close resemblance to one page in a MS made in Spain for Alfonso the Wise. -
RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
ReneZ > 12-10-2016, 10:27 AM
Interestingly, it seems that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
is quite a different one than the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
It seems worthwhile to understand how (or whether) the first derives from the second.
I spent quite some time, years ago, looking at a link between the Voynich MS zodiac illustrations and
star catalogues / paranatellonta, or as Nick Pelling later called it: "per degree astrology".
I did not write too much about the details of that, as it was (and still is) inconclusive. -
RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
MarcoP > 12-10-2016, 10:47 AM
(12-10-2016, 10:27 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interestingly, it seems that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
is quite a different one than the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
It seems worthwhile to understand how (or whether) the first derives from the second.
Hi Rene, I haven't examined in detail the XVI Century ms linked by Julian (BNE Mss/1197). From what I can see, the Lapidario text is copied from the original XIII Century ms, with many of the smaller illustrations omitted (the spaces where they should have appeared were left empty). -
RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
Diane > 12-10-2016, 11:50 AM
Hi Julian,
Not sure what happened to David Jackson's investigation, but earlier this year I posted for him a summary of things done on the topic, with various links to sources that I hoped he (and now you) might find helpful..
I also said to him ... sorry to bore Marco and Rene, who of course know this already... that:
I found no one I could cite in 2010 when I began writing up my investigation into the possibility of a “stones and stars” aspect to the ‘nymphs in barrels’, and no-one had been able to refer me to any precedent, so I had to begin from scratch.
Post to David is:
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PS - 'Chaldean' was a term distinguishing the star-worshipping people from everyone else, including Arabs. They weren't Arabs, but correctly people who lived in northern Syria, in Abraham's old home-region. The Harranians were of that type and are called 'Chaldeans' by neighbouring Christians (who didn't mean it nicely) a couple of centuries before the Islamic era. In medieval Christian works, the term either means "good" non-Byzantine Christians who acknowledge Rome, or it means "bad astrologers" or it means non-monotheist star-worshippers, or it can be applied, by the later fifteenth century, to mean just about anything to do with non-Arab eastern astronomy. A chap in correspondence with the Medici said that he hoped to print "Chaldean books" and at the time he was in Ethiopia, though at some stage went to southern India.
So however it is applied, it always means something to do with knowing the stars and not being Muslim or Latin or Byzantine Orthodox.
-
RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
julian > 12-10-2016, 07:12 PM
(12-10-2016, 08:21 AM)david Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Julian!
A few years ago I went over this link with a toothcomb but couldn't come up with anything concrete. However, I feel sure that there is a tradition link there, inasmuch as the VM author was influenced by the same Arabic traditions that Alfonso X translated, and may very well have seen and read a copy of the Lapidario (and its sister manuscripts, which were all popular in the 15th and 16th centuries across Western Europe).
BTW, Occitania is mainly southern France, not modern day Spain, although its linguistic influence extended slightly into modern day Catalonia. The language has no connection with the MS.
The influences of the book are ancient Greek, Hellenistic and Arabian. These disparate works were collated by Arab scholars into medieval works of reference, which Alfonso X later ordered translated into Castillian. The lapidario contains the reference to Chaldaen because of the compiler Abolays, who compiled part of the source manuscripts in Arab and left that note.
The names of the stones you are looking at are wrong, by the way. You're looking at a Latin translation given by the translators, not the original Arabic names that illustrate the chapters. The original MS always uses a latinized version of the Arabic names, and where possible gives the Castillian or Latin name, or the name given by other ancient races.
Remember that the book was unique in shying away from Latin, and instead being translated straight into the vernacular. Alfonso X refused to translate into Latin, saying that the knowledge gained from the Arabs should be given to all of his people and ensured that everything was written into Castillian (which is still easily readable by any fluent Spanish speaker).
I have a copy of the 1970's critical study of the Lapidario by María Brey Mariano (frustratingly, it only gives partial redrawn copies of the illustrations! but it gives a very complete rendering of the four books) and the ninth stone of Taurus is "zumberic" . Its Latin name is given as esmeril (emerald). No Castillian name is given.
It's not repeated anywhere according to María Brey, although it does reappear in Zamorat, Castillian esmeralda, 12th sign of Taurus (although this is a scribal error, it should be Zamoricaz or "stone of the hermits").
The eighth stone of Taurus, for example, is called meneffi and no Latin name is given, although the text notes the Egyptians "from where the stone is found" also call it mardican "which is the same as calling it adormecedor" (Castillian for "sleep-maker").
The third stone of Libra is given as algueña (second variety of sea foam), which María Brey says is algamarina (a type of seaweed), or in Chaldean gacora. All of the Libra stones appear to come from the sea - the first, for example, is a dried sea sponge.
And the second stone of Aquarius is Marurya (Marunia), "a green stone found in Africa on the banks of a large river in the sands of a large beach".
Hope this helps!
Hi David,
I'm a little puzzled by the stone names, which appear to be given in both the original and the Latin versions in the transcription I linked to ... in fact the Latin versions are not always given, but the originals almost always are. The "esmeril" is a Latin example where both are given in the transcription: the original name is "zumberie". The text in the linked pdf says:
"Del noveno grado del signo de Tauro es la piedra a que dicen zumberie, y en latín esmeri."
So it appears there are conflicting transcriptions of the original, as you quote "zumberic". I intend to make a table of all these stone names and feed it into a pattern matcher against the Voynich star labels.
I'm also puzzled (I spend a lot of time in this state!) by the Occitan/Catalan/Castilian crossovers, as I'm sure that I read Occitan covering part of Spain in the distant past. But I am way out of my depth in all this: I'm just trying to pattern match.
(12-10-2016, 10:27 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interestingly, it seems that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
is quite a different one than the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
It seems worthwhile to understand how (or whether) the first derives from the second.
I spent quite some time, years ago, looking at a link between the Voynich MS zodiac illustrations and
star catalogues / paranatellonta, or as Nick Pelling later called it: "per degree astrology".
I did not write too much about the details of that, as it was (and still is) inconclusive.
Hi Rene,
Yes, they seem to be different. Which is earlier? The one I linked to looks quite different. My understanding is that there were many copies made of the original Lapidario, which dates from the 1200s?
Julian
(12-10-2016, 08:39 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Julian,
Darren Worley has recently posted some very interesting images on the site of Stephen Bax:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Darren Worley Wrote:I found several woodcut images of gemstones that look very like the objects that the nymphs/ladies are holding in the VM Zodiac section. Perhaps these figures are holding gemstones, rather than stars, or perhaps these objects symbolise both?
(BTW, I only now notice that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I referenced one of the books he mentions - the 1491 Hortus Sanitatis).
I briefly mentioned Alfonso's Lapidario in 2014:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
As Rene wrote in his comment to Darren's post, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is another similar Alfonsine ms that is of great interest for Voynich research.
I agree that this is one of the most promising lines of investigation. As always, there is no trivial match with the VMS, but there could well be some deeper relation we haven't understood yet.
Thanks Marco ... Darren's post is most interesting.
Another promising avenue is to compare the shapes and orientations of the stars in the constellations as they appear in the VM with how they appear in the Lapidario. Since the Pleiades are mentioned in the Lapidario, are they illustrated there, and does its illustration of the cluster match the apparent drawing of it in the VM (which differs in detail from its actual appearance in the night sky)? I need to investigate further, but my suspicion is that others have already been down this path :-) -
RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours
-JKP- > 12-10-2016, 08:15 PM
It's a beautiful manuscript.
I've looked at it quite a bit as well, about half a year ago, but can't come up with anything concrete either.
One of the things I noticed is that it's a more southern Greco-Roman style of imagery (in terms of the zodiacs). For example, Cancer is a crab (not a crayfish), Virgo has wings, the scorpion is a real scorpion (not the scorpion lizard), Sagittarius is a centaur, etc. And it leans more toward astronomy (as it was in medieval times) rather than astrology, in the sense of illustrating a wide range of constellations (including Draco, Ursa major and minor, Corona, et al). It's not a mathematical work of astronomy (it's a fairly primitive interpretation), but it's not specifically focused on astrology.