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Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

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• Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

• RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

  julian > 13-10-2016, 06:39 AM

  An update on this investigation.
  
  I've extracted the Chaldean stone names for each Zodiac sign, from the transcription I linked to. The stones for Aries are shown below, as an example. (The whole set is available if anyone wants it.)
  
  There is something I don't understand. The first 12 sections in the Lapidario list the 30 stones for each zodiac sign, but a few signs appear to be truncated: Leo has only one stone, Pisces only has two stones, and Aquarius only 28. I wonder why that is? 
  
  There follow more sections, again one for each sign, but these each have only three stones. I'm not clear what they represent. 
  
  Following those sections are several more that cover the stones of Saturn (4 stones), Jupiter (4 stones), Mars (4 stones), Venus (24 stones), Sun (9 stones) and Mercury (17 stones).
  
  
  ARIES
  1 magnitad
  2 zurudica
  3 gagatiz
  4 miliztiz
  5 centiz
  6 movedor
  7 goliztiz
  8 telliminuz
  9 milititaz
  10 huye de la leche
  11 alj?far
  12 anetatiz
  13 beruth
  14 piedra de cinc
  15 tira el oro
  16 chupa la sangre
  17 parece en la mar cuando sube Marte
  18 tira el vidrio
  19 annora
  20 yzf
  21 cuminon
  22 astarnuz
  23 belyniz
  24 gaciuz
  25 azufaratiz
  26 abietityz
  27 lubi
  28 ceraquiz
  29 berlimaz
  30 annoxatir

• RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

  DarrenW > 13-10-2016, 08:58 AM

  Hi Julian - thanks for starting this thread. I agree that its a worthwhile topic for further investigation.
  
  The reason that Leo and Pisces are incomplete is that these sections are partially or completely missing in the surviving manuscript (just as sections of the VMS are missing too).
  
  I'm still researching this topic - if I have anything useful to add, I'll post it here.
  
  I'm not sure if Marco mentioned it before, but this book by Joan Evans is relevant and its worth reading the first few chapters. 
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

  MarcoP > 13-10-2016, 09:21 AM

  this post crossed with Darren's
  
  

  (13-10-2016, 06:39 AM)julian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An update on this investigation.
  
  I've extracted the Chaldean stone names for each Zodiac sign, from the transcription I linked to. The stones for Aries are shown below, as an example. (The whole set is available if anyone wants it.)
  
  There is something I don't understand. The first 12 sections in the Lapidario list the 30 stones for each zodiac sign, but a few signs appear to be truncated: Leo has only one stone, Pisces only has two stones, and Aquarius only 28. I wonder why that is? 
  
  There follow more sections, again one for each sign, but these each have only three stones. I'm not clear what they represent. 
  
  Following those sections are several more that cover the stones of Saturn (4 stones), Jupiter (4 stones), Mars (4 stones), Venus (24 stones), Sun (9 stones) and Mercury (17 stones).

  
  Hi Julian,
  the first text was meant to include 360 chapters, but it was not integrally transmitted (about 60 chapters/degrees were lost).
  
  The second text (Sobre las faces de los signos) is about the stones associated with the 36 decans (each of which corresponds to 10 degree of a sign). The decans were usually called "faces" in Latin.
  
  The third text is about the relationship of stones with the seven planets.
  conviene agora que sea mostrato el fecho del tercero lapidario en que de parte de como se camian muchas veces las vertudes de las piedras según el estado de las planetas et de las figuras que estan en el ochavo cielo oade ellas reciben la vertud. (we now must present the contents of the third lapidary, about how the virtues of stones change according to the position of the planets and the figures that are in the eight heaven, from which they receive their virtues)
  
  These three parts are actually a fragment of a much larger work which originally included 11 sections.
  You can find more information You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  
  Please note that also the first lapidary about the 360 degrees makes reference to the planets as "rulers" of the signs.:
  
  Your list for Aries mentions a stone associated with Mars (the planetary ruler of Aries).
  Scorpio (the second domicile of Mars) also has a similar stone (De la piedra que parece en la mar cuando se pone Marte).
  Libra has a stone associated with its planetary ruler Venus (De la piedra que parece en la mar cuando se pone Venus).
  and so on...

• RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

  Diane > 13-10-2016, 11:58 AM

  Julian,
  There is an older habit (I won't go into the intricacies of debate over who began it) whereby the stars were referred to in threes.  We think (but don't really know) that the system was applied only to the figures envisaged along the sun's path. Since it is older than the 12-figure Roman zodiac, it wouldn't originally have applied to them, exactly. (The older lion occupied about a third of the ecliptic among the Arabs before they adopted the Greco-Latin names and forms)[1]
  
  However there was the 'leader' star and his two assistants, or followers.  The 'leader' was the one who imparted the human soul.  So the individual soul was believed to have descended from that star-group (asterism or constellation) and to return to it at the time of death.
  
  The origin of the system would appear to be Egyptian and may explain the triples you see on the tablet recovered from Grand, which is a universalist idea of the heavens, uniting Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Greek and Roman forms.
  
  (Julian, I've been talking about these tabulae and why they are relevant for more than half a decade now  - and recently others have begun to mention them too -  so you might have seen the image somewhere already).
  
  The point, really, is that it appears to me to be a Chaldean - and possibly Harranian - artefact. It dates to well before the rise of Islam, but we have a 5thC diatribe in which the Harranians' "table of devils" as a means of prognostication is inveighed against. And they were also noted for having a collection of gods' statues (more than a hundred but not sure how many) each of a different 'gemstone'.  And when the Muslims came, the Harranians claimed Aratus' and Pythagoras' works among their works of holy writ.. but their annual pilgrimage was to Egypt and two of its pyramids.  Just the appropriate fusion for this tabula.
  
  Which means (take a breath) if any of the Lapidario is truly from a Chaldaean tradition, these may be the sets of three.
  Hope that's not tmi.
  
  [1] - I'm not talking about the Babylonian "36 stars" as per van der Waerden.  But that is another possibility. One star at each of the three levels rather than as a cluster.
  
  

• RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

  R. Sale > 13-10-2016, 05:29 PM

  Or perhaps, in the case of the VMS, it is really an instance of misdirection and deception. It is a matter of looking up when one should be looking down. Watch out, Thales! How old is that joke?

• RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

  julian > 14-10-2016, 02:47 AM

  Using the Lapidario transcription for the first text (the Zodiac signs divided into 30 stones each), I count 301 stones, of which 291 are unique to a sign. The remainder appear more than once as follows:
  
  
  bezaar [(9, 'G\x83MINIS'), (11, 'G\x83MINIS')]
  azarnech [(12, 'SAGITARIO'), (13, 'SAGITARIO')]
  pez [(7, 'LIBRA'), (30, 'LIBRA')]
  plomo [(18, 'VIRGO'), (13, 'CANCRO')]
  calcant [(10, 'VIRGO'), (11, 'VIRGO')]
  aliaza [(23, 'TAURO'), (29, 'TAURO')]
  parece en la mar [(15, 'SAGITARIO'), (15, 'TAURO'), (17, 'G\x83MINIS'), (17, 'ACUARIO')]
  de la serpiente [(12, 'LIBRA'), (7, 'G\x83MINIS')]
  
  e.g. "bezaar" is the 9th and the 11th stone in Gemini, "de la sepiente" is the 12th stone in Libra and the 7th in Gemini.
  
  Turning to the Voynich Zodiac, I count 298 unique star labels of which 269 are unique to a sign. The labels that appear more than once are:
  
  otal dar ['71r', '70v2'] Aries (Light) , Pisces , 
  otal ['72r2', '73r'] Gemini , Scorpio , 
  okeey ary ['72r1', '72r2'] Taurus (Dark) , Gemini , 
  okal ['73v', '72r2', '72r2'] Sagittarius , Gemini , Gemini , 
  okeos ['73v', '73r', '73r'] Sagittarius , Scorpio , Scorpio , 
  okeoly ['70v2', '72v1'] Pisces , Libra , 
  otaly ['70v2', '72v3', '73r'] Pisces , Leo , Scorpio , 
  okaram ['70v2', '72r2'] Pisces , Gemini , 
  okoly ['70v1', '72v3'] Aries (Dark) , Leo , 
  okalar ['72r3', '72r2'] Cancer , Gemini , 
  okary ['72v3', '73r'] Leo , Scorpio , 
  okam ['72r2', '72v3'] Gemini , Leo , 
  okeody ['73v', '73v', '73r', '72v2'] Sagittarius , Sagittarius , Scorpio , Virgo , 
  ykey ['73v', '73v'] Sagittarius , Sagittarius , 
  okaly ['70v2', '72r2', '72r2', '72v3'] Pisces , Gemini , Gemini , Leo , 
  okaldy ['72r2', '72v3'] Gemini , Leo , 
  otaraldy ['72r1', '72r2'] Taurus (Dark) , Gemini , 
  otoly ['72v3', '73r'] Leo , Scorpio , 
  oky ['73v', '72v3', '73r'] Sagittarius , Leo , Scorpio , 
  oteody ['73v', '73v'] Sagittarius , Sagittarius , 
  okedy ['72v1', '73r'] Libra , Scorpio , 
  
  e.g. "otal dar" appears as a label on both the Aries(Light) and Pisces zodiac chart.
  
  If the Voynich charts are indeed stones (and the labels are their names), then there should be good matches between the two lists above. 
  
  One potential match is:
  
  azarnech [(12, 'SAGITARIO'), (13, 'SAGITARIO')] 
  ykey ['73v', '73v'] Sagittarius , Sagittarius ,
  
  However, the two labels "ykey" on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are not adjacent, which they should be if they are stones 12 and 13.
  
  Another:
  
  azarnech [(12, 'SAGITARIO'), (13, 'SAGITARIO')] 
  oteody ['73v', '73v'] Sagittarius , Sagittarius , 
  
  in this case, the two labels "oteody" on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are adjacent to one another, but the figures/stars they label are in the group of four at the top of the folio: it's a stretch to think their locations are 12th and 13th.
  
  TL;DR: Not a convincing match, so far!

• RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

  DarrenW > 14-10-2016, 11:25 PM

  Hi Julian
  
  Your analysis matches my results too. Its nice to have some independent confirmation.
  
  I didn't match (Taurus,23) with (Taurus,29) but thats just a minor difference. (De la piedra que ha nombre aliaza/De la piedra que es llamada aliaza)
  
  Did you read Rene's article here : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Its worth a read. I did wonder if the VMS labels might have a similar function to the labels in Vaticanus gr. 1291 - they describe hours during the day or night. I couldn't see any obvious pattern here either.

• RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

  julian > 14-10-2016, 11:49 PM

  (14-10-2016, 11:25 PM)DarrenW Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Julian
  
  Your analysis matches my results too. Its nice to have some independent confirmation.
  
  I didn't match (Taurus,23) with (Taurus,29) but thats just a minor difference. (De la piedra que ha nombre aliaza/De la piedra que es llamada aliaza)
  
  Did you read Rene's article here : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Its worth a read. I did wonder if the VMS labels might have a similar function to the labels in Vaticanus gr. 1291 - they describe hours during the day or night. I couldn't see any obvious pattern here either.

  
  Hi Darren,
  
  That's excellent news - unusual to find independent analyses that agree in this field :-)
  
  When I extracted the stone names, I pared away any phrases like "De la piedra que ha nombre" and "De la piedra que es llamada" to leave just the name, as I felt the phrases were superfluous - but maybe I was too aggressive?
  
  I just read Rene' article, which I hadn't seen before - most interesting.
  
  My current hypothesis is that the Recipes in the Voynich are in fact the descriptions of the 300 or so stones in the Lapidario. I need to count them, and compare numbers, lengths in words of the descriptions, and so on.
  
  The other avenue I want to explore is the shapes of the star constellations in the Lapidario with the shapes of star arrangements in the Voynich. An obvious start is the Pleiades, which in the Voynich is drawn differently to how it actually appears in the night sky (the shape of the cluster is wrong, even though there are seven stars). Is the shape of the Pleiades in the Lapidario the same. Indeed, is the Pleiades even drawn in the Lapidario? I haven't looked carefully - is it in the bull here:
  
  

• RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

  DarrenW > 15-10-2016, 12:00 AM

  Regarding the Chaldean origins of the Lapidario, the manuscript does infact name the Harranian Sabian "Thabit ibn Qurrah" (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
  
  For the stone "De la piedra a que dicen ancalicetz" (Scorpio,27) it mentions "Ceherit el sabio (en la agricultura caldea)" - "Thabit the Sabian from the Chaldea(?)"
  
  I've written several posts about him in connection with the VMS over on Stephen Bax's blog - funny how his name keeps cropping up in different contexts.
  
  
  

  ---

  (14-10-2016, 11:49 PM)julian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote pid='7442' dateline='1476483909']
  My current hypothesis is that the Recipes in the Voynich are in fact the descriptions of the 300 or so stones in the Lapidario. I need to count them, and compare numbers, lengths in words of the descriptions, and so on.

  
  [/quote]
  
  That's a very sensible hypothesis - and most importantly its testable.

• RE: Alfonso X's Lapidario: Stones, Stars and Colours

  Diane > 15-10-2016, 11:04 PM

  Darren -
  not so surprising since he was one of the most eminent astronomers in early Baghdad.   Have you read Tamara Green's book?
  
  Julian, this is not exactly O-T.  The Harranian (Sabian) calendars are mind-boggling, but it is a co-incidence I've often commented on that the works the Harranians claimed as their holy writ *all* became standard texts in Europe - pretty surprising, actually, when you think how many other texts have been lost.
  
  And Alfonso's nick-name means "the wise" in Iberia, but could also be taken to mean 'the Sabian' - plus, western astrology has what is called the 'Sabian symbols' but which actually derive from older Indian works - I've usually spoken of the Brht Samhita in this context - and these form the origin of per degree astrology... also known in early Baghdad thanks to al Biruni, another name known in Europe.
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