- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
[split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
- [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
-
RE: [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
ThomasCoon > 18-07-2016, 03:56 PM
(18-07-2016, 12:50 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.About consistency in glyph shapes: has it been mentioned that both the -e- and the -n in valden look different than those in ubren? The -n could possibly be explained by an end-line flourish. I can't find an explanation for the -e-shape in walden though.
You're right: in contemporary German manuscripts (like the Cod. Sang. 754 in the year 1466), both types of -en (with and without flourish) are written, but I wasn't sure about the -e in valden either:
Also, the "an" in the sentence "so mag man mer essen und trinken" may be the reason why Helmut Winckler said that the first word of the spell is "anchiton" and not "michiton." Overall, a large number of letters (l,g,d,b,n,m) and ligatures ("an", "ch") appear to be the same in this German manuscript and f116v. -
RE: [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
-JKP- > 18-07-2016, 05:55 PM
(18-07-2016, 11:41 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Although interesting, "gaf" is less likely than "gas" - first because there's virtually no place for the stroke, second because there is a character much like "f" in Line 0 (in that extremely strange last word which seems to end with "fer"), and its shape differs from the hypothetic "f" in "gaf"
"So nim gas mich" has the following advantages:
- it sounds natural (no deviations)
- it generally fits into possible contexts
- letter shapes are in accordance with other letters in the folio
And it has only two drawbacks:
- there's actually no space between "gas" and "mich"
- the round object is unexplained
But neither of these two is avoided with "gaf" instead of "gas".
So my vote would be for "gas" as a working thread.
There is a serious drawback to either gasmich or gas mich. They don't mean anything. But that's not the only reason I proposed gaf as a possible alternative...
Look at the high-res scans. There is a somewhat vertical "channel"—an irregularity in the parchment where the pen has skipped on the letters on the two lines above. The pen may also have skipped on the last line.
Look closely. You can even see a trace of the beginning and end of a possible stem on either side of the channel. If I hadn't seen that, I doubt that I would ever have considered gaf as a possible alternative and even now, after looking at it many times, I can't tell for certain if there was a stem intended, but I think the possibility has to be considered.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
Anton > 18-07-2016, 06:08 PM
Quote:I can't find an explanation for the -e-shape in walden though.
That is something I mused over yesterday. This shape looks like the Latin letter "c". Two possibilities present themselves:
- This is an "e", and it's top edge point passes on to the ascender of the subsequent "n". If you abstract from the parchment impairment in between "e" and "n", you'll see how this happens. Although this scenatio suggests that "e" was put down from bottom to top clockwise (so as to seamlessly pass over to "n"). I don't know if that was a normal way of writing in 15th c. Myself, I always write an "e" counterclockwise.
- This is a "c", making the word something like "valdcn" or "valdcz". "Valdcn" is just phonetically strange. As for "valdcz" (or "paldcz") - are there any posibilities out there? Something Czech, maybe?
Quote:There is a serious drawback to either gasmich or gas mich. They don't mean anything.
Oh well they do. Just please read the thread from the beginning.
-
RE: [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
-JKP- > 18-07-2016, 06:49 PM
(18-07-2016, 06:08 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:I can't find an explanation for the -e-shape in walden though.
That is something I mused over yesterday. This shape looks like the Latin letter "c". Two possibilities present themselves:
- This is an "e", and it's top edge point passes on to the ascender of the subsequent "n". If you abstract from the parchment impairment in between "e" and "n", you'll see how this happens. Although this scenatio suggests that "e" was put down from bottom to top clockwise (so as to seamlessly pass over to "n"). I don't know if that was a normal way of writing in 15th c. Myself, I always write an "e" counterclockwise.
- This is a "c", making the word something like "valdcn" or "valdcz". "Valdcn" is just phonetically strange. As for "valdcz" (or "paldcz") - are there any posibilities out there? Something Czech, maybe?
Quote:There is a serious drawback to either gasmich or gas mich. They don't mean anything.
Oh well they do. Just please read the thread from the beginning.
I have read it. You proposed quickly as a meaning for gâs.
- In Romanian gâs means geese (it's geese in several other languages, as well, but spelled differently).
- In 17th century Welsh, gâs means gave/bequeathed.
- I believe it means "our folk/our sons" in old French/Norman (a variant of gârs). In modern French it's sometimes used as slang for "guys".
- In old Polish (19th century), gâs means light or gas.
But I'm not familiar with gâs meaning "quickly". What language is that?
(18-07-2016, 06:49 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(18-07-2016, 06:08 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:I can't find an explanation for the -e-shape in walden though.
That is something I mused over yesterday. This shape looks like the Latin letter "c". Two possibilities present themselves:
- This is an "e", and it's top edge point passes on to the ascender of the subsequent "n". If you abstract from the parchment impairment in between "e" and "n", you'll see how this happens. Although this scenatio suggests that "e" was put down from bottom to top clockwise (so as to seamlessly pass over to "n"). I don't know if that was a normal way of writing in 15th c. Myself, I always write an "e" counterclockwise.
- This is a "c", making the word something like "valdcn" or "valdcz". "Valdcn" is just phonetically strange. As for "valdcz" (or "paldcz") - are there any posibilities out there? Something Czech, maybe?
Quote:There is a serious drawback to either gasmich or gas mich. They don't mean anything.
Oh well they do. Just please read the thread from the beginning.
I have read it. You proposed quickly as a meaning for gâs.
- In Romanian gâs means geese (it's geese in several other languages, as well, but spelled differently).
- In 17th century Welsh, gâs means gave/bequeathed.
- I believe it means "our folk/our sons" in old French/Norman (a variant of gârs). In modern French it's sometimes used as slang for "guys".
- In old Polish (19th century), gâs means light or gas.
But I'm not familiar with gâs meaning "quickly". What language is that?
Hmmm, reading through it again, it looks like Dolokhov may have added the accent/cap. In your original blog I don't see it. But even so, I'm not familiar with gas as quickly either, so perhaps you could clarify its origin. - In Romanian gâs means geese (it's geese in several other languages, as well, but spelled differently).
-
RE: [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
ThomasCoon > 18-07-2016, 08:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a Middle High German variant of the adverb You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. meaning "quickly". MHG manuscripts / printed texts did not include the circumflex accent (in the same way that Roman inscriptions did not include the macron), but Karl Lachmann standardized Middle German in the 19th century and wrote versions of MHG texts with that diacritic.
From A History of German by Joseph Salmons (2013), page 181-182:
"The 'Middle High German' language we typically see in non-technical editions, such as literary anthologies, is often significantly different from the language of written texts with regards to how sounds are represented in writing. This ultimately goes back to the practices of 19th century editors. In particular, following the models he followed from the editing practices of classical philology (so it's said), Karl Lachmann produced influential editions of many MHG words through the early 19th century. Unwilling to simply take the written record at face value, Lachmann worked hard to 'improve' it, following the practices of the 'best' manuscripts, and introducing spellings that are unknown from the manuscripts ... The features of this variety include regularization of highly variable but equivalent spellings like f versus v and introduction of a circumflex (^) to mark long vowels, something known but uncommon in the actual manuscripts"
Either way I agree with -JKP- (and Anton in his blog post) that there is a dot between "gaf/s" and "mich". Since all the other "m"s have an ascender - and the one in "mich" doesn't - I think it belongs with the "mich". The idea of "geismi[l]ch" would make perfect sense and I could see how "gas" may actually be "geis." It would also make sense linguistically: "so nim geismi[l]ch" is the most clear and logical sentence that we've constructed. There are also linguistic rules that explain the missing "L" in milch. -
RE: [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
-JKP- > 18-07-2016, 08:49 PM
(18-07-2016, 08:06 PM)Dolokhov Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a Middle High German variant of the adverb You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. meaning "quickly". MHG manuscripts / printed texts did not include the circumflex accent (in the same way that Roman inscriptions did not include the macron), but scholars like Karl Lachmann standardized Middle German in the 19th century and wrote editions of MHG texts using that diacritic.
From A History of German by Joseph Salmons (2013), page 181-182:
"The 'Middle High German' language we typically see in non-technical editions, such as literary anthologies, is often significantly different from the language of written texts with regards to how sounds are represented in writing. This ultimately goes back to the practices of 19th century editors. In particular, following the models he followed from the editing practices of classical philology (so it's said), Karl Lachmann produced influential editions of many MHG words through the early 19th century. Unwilling to simply take the written record at face value, Lachmann worked hard to 'improve' it, following the practices of the 'best' manuscripts, and introducing spellings that are unknown from the manuscripts ... The features of this variety include regularization of highly variable but equivalent spellings like f versus v and introduction of a circumflex (^) to mark long vowels, something known but uncommon in the actual manuscripts"
Either way I agree with -JKP- (and Anton in his original blog post) that there is a dot between "gaf/s" and "mich". Since all the other "m"s have an ascender - and the one in "mich" doesn't - I think it belongs with the "mich". Personally, the idea of "geismi[l]ch" would make perfect sense and I could see how "gas" may actually be "geis." It would also make sense linguistically: "so nim geismi[l]ch" is the most clear and logical sentence that we've constructed. There are also linguistic rules that explain the missing "L" in milch.
All right, I'm familiar with gâhes (as "quickly" "in a hurry") but didn't know it existed as gâs at that time and didn't make the connection between gâhes and gâs.
I'm less certain about "milch" with a missing "l". If the parts are taken together, it seems plausible as it would be contextually meaningful, but when looked at individually, it seems like a stretch that milch would be misspelled when mich is a common word that is so distinctly different in meaning.
Geis I find plausible because it might be pronounced and spelled with an "a" in the central and northern areas in middle ages. It's an interesting word as it is associated in Celtic lore with spells (both curses and blessings). If the preceding text is a charm, it would fit right in and could mean something like "so to take the curse [from] me". It's still somewhat bad grammar, but isn't any worse than many of the alternative suggestions. -
RE: [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
ThomasCoon > 18-07-2016, 09:03 PM
(18-07-2016, 08:49 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All right, I'm familiar with gâhes (as "quickly" "in a hurry") but didn't know it existed as gâs at that time and didn't make the connection between gâhes and gâs.
I'm less certain about "milch" with a missing "l". If the parts are taken together, it seems plausible as it would be contextually meaningful, but when looked at individually, it seems like a stretch that milch would be misspelled when mich is a common word that is so distinctly different in meaning.
Geis I find plausible because it might be pronounced and spelled with an "a" in the central and northern areas in middle ages. It's an interesting word as it is associated in Celtic lore with spells (both curses and blessings). If the preceding text is a charm, it would fit right in and could mean something like "so to take the curse [from] me". It's still somewhat bad grammar, but isn't any worse than many of the alternative suggestions.
The reason I suggested "geismi[l]ch" is because it appears to be one word (the dot between them is likely the missing ascender for the "m", which means the phrase is one long word with no space in between). If that is the case, "geismilch" / "gasmilch" makes perfect sense. The "L" could have fallen out because of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - for the same reason we don't pronounce the "L" in "walk".
You are obviously a German student if you are familiar with MHG - just out of curiosity, can I ask where you come from, and what your degrees are? I have a Master's in German (specialization Linguistics) and am glad to find a fellow Germanicist
I was also not aware of the association to Celtic lore - very interesting! Now it's just the question of whether the word is clearly separate from "mich" or not. -
RE: [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
Koen G > 18-07-2016, 09:13 PM
Anton - I can't make much sense of the word if the final letter is an -n and the preceding one is not a vowel. Vald-n ... Similarly, it's hard to complete "valdc-" apart from with a vowel. Or perhaps something like "valdch", though that would require the "h" to have been much smaller than the other ones - unlikely.
What about if the last letters in valden were corrected? The "e" looks as if the scribe was forming another of those 8-like d's, just like the preceding character, but then he erased it. -
RE: [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
-JKP- > 18-07-2016, 09:36 PM
[Dolokokhov's question and my answer moved to the Researcher's Intro section in the spirit of keeping the thread on topic.] -
RE: [split] Discussion of f116v interpretations by Anton Alipov
Anton > 18-07-2016, 11:16 PM
Quote:But even so, I'm not familiar with gas as quickly either, so perhaps you could clarify its origin.
I'm using woerterbuchnetz.de (a recommended resource!). In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we find:
Quote:gâs adv. s.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.gâhes
(18-07-2016, 09:13 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anton - I can't make much sense of the word if the final letter is an -n and the preceding one is not a vowel. Vald-n ... Similarly, it's hard to complete "valdc-" apart from with a vowel. Or perhaps something like "valdch", though that would require the "h" to have been much smaller than the other ones - unlikely.
What about if the last letters in valden were corrected? The "e" looks as if the scribe was forming another of those 8-like d's, just like the preceding character, but then he erased it.
The alleged "d" is also strange. It's not like the (alleged) "d" in "oladabas". It's more like the (alleged, sorry!) "s" in the end of the words. What if it's an "s" indeed? Is an 8-shaped "s" OK in the middle of the word? As far as I understand, "vals" means "falsehood, fraud" in MHD. Could "valsen" be a word form of "vals"?