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Wien Cod. 13647
- Wien Cod. 13647
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Wien Cod. 13647
JustAnotherTheory > Today, 10:55 AM
The mansucript: Wien, Österr. Nationalbibl., Cod. 13647, could be interesting for the study of the VMS. It features the rare depiction of Cancer as a lobster with incorrectly placed legs on its tail:
[url=https://www.handschriftencensus.de/hss/Wien][/url]
There are other similarities to the VMS too:
Links to the MS:
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RE: Wien Cod. 13647
eggyk > 11 hours ago
(Today, 10:55 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The mansucript: Wien, Österr. Nationalbibl., Cod. 13647, could be interesting for the study of the VMS.
Thanks for this one! Few things I noticed:
Leo is very good:
The sagittarius with a fish tail and legs is very rare:
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I would say that the pisces and gemini are reasonably normal, though.
The month for april is interesting:
The bar over the b may be for an e? Is it "aberiillen"? This is also a clear example of one of these austrian manuscripts with the unusual double dots in the middle, which could help us work out if this is abr ii llen or abr ü llen. -
RE: Wien Cod. 13647
JustAnotherTheory > 8 hours ago
Great observation! I totally missed the "Aberillen"! What language would this be? It is certainly not German, maybe some weird Occitan dialect? -
RE: Wien Cod. 13647
DG97EEB > 8 hours ago
(8 hours ago)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Great observation! I totally missed the "Aberillen"! What language would this be? It is certainly not German, maybe some weird Occitan dialect?
It most certainly is German, and we see it a lot in German Manuscripts from the period... Take a look at Eggy's spreadsheet -
RE: Wien Cod. 13647
eggyk > 8 hours ago
(8 hours ago)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Great observation! I totally missed the "Aberillen"! What language would this be? It is certainly not German, maybe some weird Occitan dialect?
It is certainly a dialect of german. Bavarian-austrian.
mertzen, abrillen, may, ander may, erst august, ander august, erst heribst, ander heribst, erst windter, lest windter
The sequence of first may, other may, first august, second august, first autumn, second autumn was common in german speaking areas. Heribst is a rare spelling, but was seen in a Salzburg sequence from the early 15th century as well.
lest (or letzst) in december is a common southern german/austrian thing as well. -
RE: Wien Cod. 13647
Jorge_Stolfi > 1 hour ago
(Today, 10:55 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The mansucript: Wien, Österr. Nationalbibl., Cod. 13647, could be interesting for the study of the VMS.
But some of the similarities are not as remarkable as they may seem. Some are actually dissimilarities.
Pisces as two fish connected by a line is how the actual constellation has always been "parsed" and often depicted in illustrations. (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. cites some myths that explain why there are two fish, but not where the idea of a cord came from.)
IIRC, others have posted other examples of Gemini being depicted as two people facing each other and holding crossed hands; and some were a man and a woman, as in the VMS. But in that example you posted the two people are two soldiers.
That Sagittarius -- with a fish tail, or being swallowed by a fish, or coming out of a fish -- seems unusual, but that is not what we see in the VMS zodiac. We see a similar fish-person composite on f79v, but it is not a Sagittarius. (The word means "archer" or "bowman". It comes from "sagitta" = "arrow", so literally it should mean arrow maker or trader or something like it; but "sagittarius" in the Roman army was a mounted archer.)
On the other hand, Capricorn -- the next sign in the Zodiac -- for some reason was sometimes depicted as half-goat, half-fish. Maybe some artist in the copying chain had one beer too many and conflated the two signs?
(11 hours ago)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The month for april is interesting: The bar over the b may be for an e?
I think that bar belongs to the letter on the previous line, just above the "b".
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Wien Cod. 13647
Bluetoes101 > 1 hour ago
(1 hour ago)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think that bar belongs to the letter on the previous line, just above the "b".
Seems that way to me too.
Not sure if this is of use at all to anyone, much later, but just something that popped up when I searched out of interest.
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RE: Wien Cod. 13647
eggyk > 48 minutes ago
(1 hour ago)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pisces as two fish connected by a line is how the actual constellation has always been "parsed" and often depicted in illustrations. (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. cites some myths that explain why there are two fish, but not where the idea of a cord came from.)
I thought it simply came from how the constellation looks.
At some point, people started depicting the fish in parallel as well, keeping the tether and stars within that new shape. And sometimes it was just the tether.
(1 hour ago)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think that bar belongs to the letter on the previous line, just above the "b".
All the best, --stolfi
Yes, you're right! Thankyou.