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The Fastnachtspiele theory
- The Fastnachtspiele theory
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The Fastnachtspiele theory
JustAnotherTheory > Yesterday, 12:50 PM
OK so recently there have been a few discoveries concerning authors of "Fastnachtspiele", a kind of south German pre-Lent carnival play/song tradition in the late 15th, early 16th centuries:
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These discoveries, as it turns out, might be relevant to the history of the VMS, so I thought this deserves its own thread. Several authors of Fastnachtspiele use "pox"-related swearwords. There is a list already here, thanks to @You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. :
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The main authors are, in chronological order of writing pox-swearwords:
- Hans Rosenplüt (1400-1460),
- Hans Folz (1435-1513),
- Hans Sachs (1494-1576).
These 3 "Hans"s are responsible for the majority of pox-swearing in written literature. They were all based in Nürnberg. This is relevant because on the VMS folio f116v, the first word seems to be "poxleber".
I recently made the observation that Hans Sachs (one of the Hans' above) wrote some text containing "Geis mich":
Note that since the last words on the VMS folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. appear to be "geis mich", this once again is relevant to the VMS. More information here:
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In fact, there are a lot of instances of "geis mich" like this, perhaps we should make a sticky thread about it, like with "poxleber".
Anyway, going further, I found an interesting manuscript of Hans Folz, the second Hans above. Take a look:
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Oh, and what is this?
Hans Folz loved to swear with "pox"-words too. In fact, I've counted (manually) about 30 pox-swearwords in this MS alone. Examples are:- pox leichnam
- pox haut
- pox trost
- pox lung
- pox grint
All of which are used in the context of swearing, not literal body parts.
It turns out, this second Hans was a polymath, not just a satyric trickster-playwright. He wrote a book on bathing: Dises puchlein saget vns von allen paden. Here is a woodcut from that:
He was also an astrologer, and astronomer. Look at a woodcut from his Practica teutsch meister:
The stars seem to be a matching shape for the VMS stars. Folz also wrote several books on medicine, here is a full list:
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His Fastnachtspiele were also, unusually, bound together in a book with occultism:
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Of note is that Folz also wrote a book on engineering:
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Digital scans here:
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Look like it is heavily inspired by Konrad Kyeser and Taccola!
I think it's worth looking into these people, even though they lived and published about 50 years later than the carbon dating of the VMS.
I will say one last thing, about the curious handwriting that ressembles EVA "ain" previously. It seems that this is not the handwriting of Hans Folz himself, but a curious individual with unknown origins. A recent study, that you can find here:
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has looked at the authors of the manuscript, and found 5 different hands. 4 of these could be identified, except for the fifth, the one who wrote our EVA-ish text. The researchers identify this person as "Scribe Gb":
Quote:Gb fällt durch Vorlagentreue auf, ein eigenständiger Dialekt kann nicht isoliert werden.
So they cannot identify even the dialect of Scribe Gb.
Quote:Simon vermutet aufgrund der Textauswahl, dass Gb Folz nahestand.
Meaning that the researchers assume, that he was probably close to Folz himself. This is explained because Scribe Gb had intimate knowledge of Hans Folz plays, and copied only Hans Folz plays by hand, and also appeared to have had access to Folz's personal source material because he copied the spelling mistakes from them, too.
Was Scribe Gb somehow involved in the VMS? Could the VMS have been influenced by, or been masterminded by, Hans Folz? Here are some arguments:- Pox-swearwords appear abundantly in Hans Folz works.
- Folz published about bathing, astronomy, astrology, and appeared in at least one occultism manuscript.
- He published an illustrated engineering book.
- One of his close friends/relatives seems to write in a curious EVA-like way.
- Folz often had access to, and used cheap parchment, for sketching out his Fastnachtspiele plays and songs.
- Folz loved to write funny and satyric material, making fun of nobles and the clergy. Quite the trickster, one might come to think.
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A final bit of curiosa:
The pope Pius II apparently visited Nürnberg, where Folz lived, around that time. This is an interesting coincidence because Pius II studied under Sozzini in Siena, who we know on a 1438 night met with Taccola himself, who showed him his De Ingeneis I-II books in person... - Hans Rosenplüt (1400-1460),
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RE: The Fastnachtspiele theory
DG97EEB > Yesterday, 01:32 PM
Interesting, but these guys were right at the end of the century, and codicologically that's really the extreme end. Vellum wasn't just lying around... although others have discussed this at great lengths and opinions vary.. but pushing Voynich in to the 16th century is a bit of a stretch.. that said, Hans may simply have been reflecting his own intellectual milieu and maybe, we see echoes of Voynich rather than Voynich itself.. who knows -
RE: The Fastnachtspiele theory
JustAnotherTheory > Yesterday, 01:54 PM
(Yesterday, 01:32 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interesting, but these guys were right at the end of the century, and codicologically that's really the extreme end. Vellum wasn't just lying around... although others have discussed this at great lengths and opinions vary.. but pushing Voynich in to the 16th century is a bit of a stretch.. that said, Hans may simply have been reflecting his own intellectual milieu and maybe, we see echoes of Voynich rather than Voynich itself.. who knows
The MS with the EVA-ish "ain" is from 1486. So the parchment would only have been "lying around" for a few decades at this point.
PS. I edited the main post to add the 3 Hans' birth- and death-dates:
- Hans Rosenplüt (1400-1460),
- Hans Folz (1435-1513),
- Hans Sachs (1494-1576).
- Hans Rosenplüt (1400-1460),
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RE: The Fastnachtspiele theory
ololololo > Yesterday, 02:13 PM
Excellent finds! But VMS’s handwriting is a controversial criterion. This doesn’t tell us that aiin = aiu or au. We can simply say that one person wrote something that is roughly similar to the VMS text.
In one of the French manuscripts, someone even found daiin... But I don’t remember the translation. -
RE: The Fastnachtspiele theory
JustAnotherTheory > Yesterday, 02:28 PM
(Yesterday, 02:13 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Excellent finds! But VMS’s handwriting is a controversial criterion. This doesn’t tell us that aiin = aiu or au. We can simply say that one person wrote something that is roughly similar to the VMS text.
In one of the French manuscripts, someone even found daiin... But I don’t remember the translation.
That's absolutely right. However this is the first time I see the tilted "i" characters next to each other in such a manner, with the loop at the end. Looks EVA-ish to me :| -
RE: The Fastnachtspiele theory
Stefan Wirtz_2 > Yesterday, 02:59 PM
First word in first picture is "Geitz", today "Geiz" = stinginess.
Has nothing to do with any Geis / Gais or to keep it real, gas.
I doubt the rest of your samples, but lost interest now. -
RE: The Fastnachtspiele theory
Stefan Wirtz_2 > Yesterday, 04:21 PM
(Yesterday, 04:12 PM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks so much for your valuable input
dito.
Do you have even an idea of what you are posting here? With a quick view I may say that's an "Der erst pant"(!) = der erste Band / the first volume.
Nothing about "au" at all.
But maybe somebody else reads it different, I don't care.
You cannot just dump your findings without trying to understand what is written there.
And even "Geis" is a very weak theory and not much to care for: it just not written there at f 116... -
RE: The Fastnachtspiele theory
JustAnotherTheory > Yesterday, 04:39 PM
(Yesterday, 04:21 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.dito.
Do you have even an idea of what you are posting here? With a quick view I may say that's an "Der erst pant"(!) = der erste Band / the first volume.
Nothing about "au" at all.
But maybe somebody else reads it different, I don't care.
You cannot just dump your findings without trying to understand what is written there.
And even "Geis" is a very weak theory and not much to care for: it just not written there at f 116...
I would suggest you calm down. This is not a constructive tone. -
RE: The Fastnachtspiele theory
Bluetoes101 > Yesterday, 04:49 PM
(Yesterday, 02:13 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In one of the French manuscripts, someone even found daiin... But I don’t remember the translation.
This was me I think, it was "dautre/d autre" if I remember right.
Pretty sure your example is Geiß mich, there's 6 pages of them here including printed works - ß < > z
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