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I found another "poxleber"
- I found another "poxleber"
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RE: I found another "poxleber"
JustAnotherTheory > 17-09-2026, 11:43 AM
In this case this might somewhat invalidate the "modern forgery" hypothesis, as the author of the marginalia must have been fluent in 15th century German peasant slang, of which very few actual examples survive. -
RE: I found another "poxleber"
Koen G > 17-09-2026, 12:00 PM
(17-09-2026, 11:19 AM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It may very well be that the reformation authors were the first who dared to publish such expressions, while they have a much longer oral history.
This has been my position for a while now. By placing the words in the direct speech of rejectable characters, these authors could also make it clear that they'd never use such words themselves. Look at how the stupid farmer curses!
With Nürnberg, the 16th century and reformation ideals, there does seem to be some connection between these authors, though as you say, we cannot be sure if they copied from each other. However, I'd argue that in part we are dealing with a spelling problem (the use of "x"), so some written influence can be assumed. It's also a near certainty that the Fastnachtspiele authors had read some of these pamphlets. In short, they were part of the same literary milieu. -
RE: I found another "poxleber"
Bernd > 17-09-2026, 12:23 PM
I'd like to point out we still have no idea whether we are dealing with a pox- minced oath swearword or the literal goat liver in the VM. Unfortunately I have not received a reply from the Kitzbühel city archive regarding the instructions for butchers from 1503 but I will try again. -
RE: I found another "poxleber"
JustAnotherTheory > 17-09-2026, 12:33 PM
Thank you all for your interesting points. Are we edging closer to ... something, here?
In any case, I wonder whether the new Motschiedler example from 1525 is the earliest literary (i.e., prose) example of "poxleber" that we have. Or is there earlier? The one from Kitzbühel (referring to the actual price of the liver itself) in 1503 seems to be the "globally" earliest one.
If the VMS "poxleber" is indeed a reference to peasant vulgarity, it might be the first recorded historical instance in existence
PS. Should we compile a list of "poxleber"s that the community has found, so far? Maybe with a timeline/origin information? -
RE: I found another "poxleber"
Koen G > 17-09-2026, 02:06 PM
(17-09-2026, 12:33 PM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.PS. Should we compile a list of "poxleber"s that the community has found, so far? Maybe with a timeline/origin information?
Before I saw this addition to your post, I was working on just the thing: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I know I missed some of the reformation authors, or at lease one, but I couldn't find the reference. Anyone know what's missing? -
RE: I found another "poxleber"
JustAnotherTheory > 17-09-2026, 02:16 PM
Great post, thanks a lot @KoenG.
PS. The last date in your post is wrong (should read 1550 instead of 1450). Great job otherwise
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RE: I found another "poxleber"
Rafal > 17-09-2026, 03:16 PM
Quote:As I understood from this forum, “pox” was something like a very vulgar and peasant‑like swear word.
Not really. "Pox" is just a writing form of "bock" - he-goat.
It feels Bavarian/Tirol. These guys often replaced "b" with "p". Instead of writing "blut" (blood) they wrote "plut" etc.
The vulgarity comes from the fact that you often made oaths, charms etc. by calling body parts of Christ and saints like "corpus Christi" - body of Christ. See my thread: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Replacing in with goat could sound blasphemous.
See: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: I found another "poxleber"
Pierre Dumont Himself > 17-09-2026, 06:01 PM
From an online article by Dr. Eberhard Ostermann:
Quote:Die Sprache der Blasphemie war verboten und verlockend zugleich. Und sie war äußerst komplex: So war es beispielsweise verpönt, bei Christi Gliedern zu schwören. Für die mögliche Bestrafung war es dabei von großer Bedeutung, ob sich die betreffenden Körperteile ober- oder unterhalb der Gürtellinie befanden. Dem Zürcher Stadtrecht von 1344 zufolge hatte eine empfindliche Geldbuße zu zahlen oder mit acht Tagen Stadtverweis zu rechnen, wer einen der folgenden Schwüre verwendete: „Gotz wunden, Gotz sweis, Gotz schedel, Gotz höpt, Gotz kopf, Gotz styrn, Gotz lunge, Gotz leber, Gotz ader, Gotz bart, Gotz nasa.“ Dieser Katalog wurde später noch durch „Gotz hertz, Gotz grind [Gottes Schorf bzw. Kopf], Gotz fuos“ und „Gotz zers“ (Gottes Penis) ergänzt.
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[...]
Besonders im Mittelmeerraum war es nicht unüblich, Maria eine Hure zu nennen oder Jesus einen Ziegenbock, der im Unterschied zum Schafsbock, einem Symbol männlicher Stärke, als besonders dumm galt, weil er es zulässt, dass auch Rivalen seine Weibchen besteigen.
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RE: I found another "poxleber"
Koen G > 17-09-2026, 07:32 PM
Interesting! First time I hear about calling Jesus a Bock though. I wonder if they confused this with minced oaths. -
RE: I found another "poxleber"
ololololo > 17-09-2026, 07:45 PM
(17-09-2026, 03:16 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Not really. "Pox" is just a writing form of "bock" - he-goat.
There’s a nuance that made me classify “pox” as a swear word.
In the texts of the plays, “pox” apparently translates as “God's” — “God's liver.”
Anything can be written in VMS, but if I’m referring to goat’s liver, I should, in theory, write “bocksleber,” and if I’m referring to God’s liver, then “poxleber.”
But I could be wrong, and I don’t want to mislead anyone…