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I found another "poxleber"

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• I found another "poxleber"

• RE: A new instance of poxleber

  monisusa > 03-08-2026, 08:02 AM

  (02-08-2026, 05:49 PM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well, almost. It's an instance of "boxleber", but to me the interesting part is that the author chose to write the genitive with an "x". To my knowledge, "boxleber" is as rare as "poxleber".
  
  Anyway, it is from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (early 1500s), Switzerland.
  
  
  
  My reading: "... oder mit eynem guten Syrop / Sommer boxleber / es koste was es wolle / es sol uns kein gelt rewen".
  
  Source: Augsburg, Staats- und Stadtbibliothek -- 4 Th H 1735
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  As to poxleber: The German sound /ks/ can be spelled in different ways, x, chs, gs, cks. Since orthographie was not yet standardized in the 15th century there were various and individual kinds of spelling.
  The scribe of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. decided to write poxleber. Here the sound shift of the Upper German region b > p is apparent. It doesn't make much sense to discuss this
  word over and over again. I explained the use in medieval medicin in my study You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

• RE: A new instance of poxleber

  ololololo > 03-08-2026, 08:23 AM

  @monisusa, don't believe that your theory is the only correct one  We need to remember that we can't know anything for sure about VMS, no matter how much research we do.

• RE: A new instance of poxleber

  Bernd > 03-08-2026, 02:53 PM

  By the way - did anyone ever manage to acquire a scan of the original Kitzbühel document from 1503 mentioning poxleber?
  
  We know it from this PDF:
  Die älteren Stadtrechtsquellen von Kitzbuhel.
  Dr. Ferd. Kogler, Ferd.-Zeitschrift. III. Folge. 52. Heft.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  p.86
  Nr. XII.
  1503 Februar 6.
  Satzung der Bürger in Markt- und Gewerbesachen.
  Gleichzeitige Kopie im Stadtarchiv in Kitzbühel cod. 2, fol. 90 ff.
  

  Quote:Fleischhackher und die vaist vich kauffen in der meil
  wechs auch ains tails ausserhalben.
  
  Item die fleischhackher sollen alle 14 tag ain oxen schlachen,
  der zwen muesen vier Reinisch gulden gesten oder mer. Sollen
  das rindfleisch geben fronwag zu fier fierer und sunst ander rindrens
  auch also.
  Das schäffen ain phundt umb funffthalben fierer.
  Das kelbrein ain phundt umb drey fierer.
  Das gaisein ain phundt umb drei fierer.
  Das peckhein ain phundt umb drei fierer.
  Ain kalberkopf umb ain kreutzer.
  Ain greb umb ain kreutzer.
  Ain kresl umb drei fierer.
  Ain poxleber umb ain kreutzer.

  
  It's a legal deed fixing the prices a butcher may charge for his products. I'd like t see how this 'poxleber' was written in the original document. It should be in:
  Stadtarchiv in Kitzbühel cod. 2, fol. 90 ff.

• RE: A new instance of poxleber

  Koen G > 03-08-2026, 05:31 PM

  (03-08-2026, 02:53 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's a legal deed fixing the prices a butcher may charge for his products. I'd like t see how this 'poxleber' was written in the original document. It should be in:
  Stadtarchiv in Kitzbühel cod. 2, fol. 90 ff.

  
  It might be interesting if a native German speaker with the required communicative skills could ask them is there's a kind librarian that may send a picture of this entry. Bernd?   
  
  (If anyone would like to contact them, please mention it here first, so we don't have several emails going out).

• RE: A new instance of poxleber

  Bernd > 04-08-2026, 01:47 PM

  Yes, no problem. I'll ask them if they can provide a scan or photo. I can't go to Kitzbühel myself anytime soon if required, maybe in autumn.

• I found another "poxleber"

  JustAnotherTheory > 17-09-2026, 09:16 AM

  I found a new example of "poxleber". It's in a book by Georg Motschiedler, published in Nürnberg in 1525:
  
     
  
  Here is the information about the book:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Here is the relevant page (p. 13, right hand side):
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: I found another "poxleber"

  Koen G > 17-09-2026, 11:06 AM

  The Hans Sachs play (also Nürnberg) where we find "pox leber" in a similar expression is Der Bauer im Fegefeuer (1552). "May pox leber harm [person]". Basically "Curse her!". (In Sachs, the farmer curses at his wife).
  
  It is a quarter century earlier than Sachs, but clearly belongs to the same context. Like Sachs' plays, this Dialogus is part of the wider genre of Reformation dialogue. Although I'm not sure if this one was also intended as a stage play, rather than a pamphlet.

• RE: I found another "poxleber"

  Bernd > 17-09-2026, 11:19 AM

  Good find!
  It's again in the usual context: Vulgar anti-clerical reformation-era satire of the 1520s. A nobleman and a monk, both displaced by the German Peasants’ War lament their fate.
  There's also 'pox filtzhüt' on the same page.
  
  I briefly investigated Georg Motschiedler, but he's far less prominent than Hans Sachs or Niklaus Manuel. He appears to have been an amateur writer who's only known from this pamphlet. It's not a play. Little else is known about him. I also haven't found a direct connection between those authors. Pamphlets spread rapidly back then so it's hard to say if those pox- swearwords were just common expressions of the time or if the authors copied from each other. It may very well be that the reformation authors were the first who dared to publish such expressions, while they have a much longer oral history.

• RE: I found another "poxleber"

  JustAnotherTheory > 17-09-2026, 11:29 AM

  Thanks! I wonder what this all means within the context of the VMS, as we have now found several instances of "poxleber" in 15xx literature:
  

  • Was the marginalia on folio 116v of the VMS written after 1500?
    
  • Is the marginalia on folio 116v meant to be a vulgarity towards something/someone? I.e., "poxleber ? lucifer/putzifer": "god d*mn lucifer / this idiot Putzifer"?
    
  • Was "poxleber" a common slang in the early 1400s as well?
    

• RE: I found another "poxleber"

  ololololo > 17-09-2026, 11:34 AM

  (17-09-2026, 11:29 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Was the marginalia on folio 116v of the VMS written after 1500?

  The text You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is similar in style to the text of the entire VMS. There is reason to believe that it was written in the same ink/with the same quill/by the same hand. So there is a possibility that the inscription is the same age as the manuscript.
  

  (17-09-2026, 11:29 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Was "poxleber" a common slang in the early 1400s as well?

  As I understood from this forum, “pox” was something like a very vulgar and peasant‑like swear word.
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