[split] Big f116v spillover thread.

[Aga Tentakulus]

I know there are too many differences in the top line.
That’s why I’m ignoring them. There are simply too many possibilities and not enough words.

[oshfdk]

I don't think any of those examples is comparable to the diagonal strokes on those two crosses on f116v.  

I've added 3 crosses from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to the image (I think the third one also has a tiny serif), just for the reference.

   

I think there could be one extra aspect to this - the cross here appears to be a religious sign, with some suggestions that the readers should cross themselves when reading the passage each time a cross appears. In which case there could be specific rules about the way this cross is written, the order of strokes, etc. Which may explain the "inconvenient" way to write it with a quill.

[Aga Tentakulus]

Not every cross here is actually a cross.
‘lott’ is a unit of measurement. The crossed-out 1 means half a lott. It’s certainly part of a recipe.

[JoJo_Jost]

I know there are too many differences in the top line.
That’s why I’m ignoring them. There are simply too many possibilities and not enough words.

Yeah, that’s definitely a good idea.

You can only approach this thing through logic. And I think it’s alliteration—three words starting with “p”—so there’s a certain probability there. But whether it’s “pinsn,” “pansn,” “pinen,” “pmen,” “pmsn,” “pmcn,” “pincn,” etc., we’ll probably never find out. It’s too bad that “pansn” (meaning “to eat heartily”) requires too many assumptions.

But I also like the idea you and Koen came up with about “Umb ain” Kupfer… although “Kupfer” is really very unlikely, and the “u”s don’t match up.

In short: I’m sure we’ll never figure it out...

But it's also always nice to hear new and old theories (the ones you've already forgotten) on the subject.

[oshfdk]

Not every cross here is actually a cross.
‘lott’ is a unit of measurement. The crossed-out 1 means half a lott. It’s certainly part of a recipe.

You are right, I was just scanning that thread for images not really following the discussion. This one is from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and it's explained there that it's about measurement.

[Jorge_Stolfi]

I think there could be one extra aspect to this - the cross here appears to be a religious sign, with some suggestions that the readers should cross themselves when reading the passage each time a cross appears.

Yes, that is surely what the poor guy who tried to restore the lost text thought.  "I see some bits that don't look like any letters, but look like crosses.  Aha, this text must have been a charm, of course... That "c" must be an "a", so that word could be "maria".  That "cbta" must then be "abta", which sounds like Latin.  That "pox" at the top, ... what is it that the priest says at mass? "pox hibiscum"? Maybe.., no, must be "leben""...

In which case there could be specific rules about the way this cross is written, the order of strokes, etc.

The Catholic sign of the cross itself is very standardized and learned as a kid: "In nomine Patris [touch forehead], et Filii [touch chest], et Spiritus [touch left shoulder] Sanctii [touch right shoulder].  With the right hand (apparently even if one is left-handed).

Doing the sign of the cross any other way would stand out and mark one as not a real Catholic, maybe a heretic, Satanist even.

That said, I don't think there is any tradition or rule about the order of drawing a cross. Even because a simple sign of two strokes like a "+" would hardly be recognized as a Christian Cross except in specific contexts (like a charm or missal).  To be seen a cross the drawing would have to be "fatter".

All the best, --stolfi

[Aga Tentakulus]

   

Still on the subject of ‘lott’.  a lot of lott.
What makes this recipe interesting is the borage flower mentioned in the top line.
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Which brings me straight to the plants. Sorry, Tavie, that was a slip of the tongue.
This flower corresponds to VM plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with 90 per cent certainty.

Borage, aniseed, ???, parsley, fennel seeds, cress, sage – mix them together and crush them.

With ‘Anis’ (enis), we’ve also got a sound shift here.
A – Ä – E.
Anis.
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Definitely 90% F41r.
Everything’s fine.  Alles im grünen Bereich.

[Jorge_Stolfi]

The Catholic sign of the cross itself is very standardized and learned as a kid: "In nomine Patris [touch forehead], et Filii [touch chest], et Spiritus [touch left shoulder] Sanctii [touch right shoulder].  With the right hand (apparently even if one is left-handed).

Doing the sign of the cross any other way would stand out and mark one as not a real Catholic, maybe a heretic, Satanist even.

Addendum: just learned that in the Eastern (Orthodox) Church, the sign of the Cross is mirror-reversed from the above: right shoulder before left shoulder.

And apparently they are more specific about the finger positions, too: thumb and pinky folded against the palm, the other three stretched and joined together.  

If there is a similar finger standard in the Catholic Church, it seems that everybody ignores it.  I have always seen people do it with all five fingers stretched out and separated, the hand slightly cupped but relaxed.

All the best, --stolfi

[Jorge_Stolfi]

One day this entire thread will become a case study in pareidolia and confirmation bias...

Indeed, all the attempts at deciphering the text of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the last 100 years are a big case of meta-pareidolia: people "seeing" meaningful words in a bunch of mostly random letters, which were written by a guy a few centuries ago who "saw" Latin or German words on a smattering of random smudges that were once Voynichese glyphs.

All the best, --stolfi

[Koen G]

pareidolia [...] a smattering of random smudges that were once Voynichese glyphs.

Allow me some vigorous quote-trimming to highlight the irony of this statement.