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Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

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• Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

• RE: Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

  nablator > 08-07-2026, 09:24 AM

  (08-07-2026, 04:17 AM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Words were created in a similar way as Timm explained, there was very little variety of prefixes and prepositions, a lot of repeated suffixes which are in VM also misread, like n and iv, am, ed, il, a lot of words that are spelled the same, but pronounced differently, due to different value of vowel or different accent. 

  
  These imaginary words are certainly easier to match with the VMS than written words found in a Slovenian 15th century text (Stična Codex).

• RE: Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

  cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 08-07-2026, 04:17 PM

  Why is Stična codex different? 
  
  
  Stična codex was written by a Czech monk in German style of writing, which by that time was already well established. It uses German letterforms k,h, z, cz for č, r, long s, combination st, v and w also as initials, somtimes, but not always,  it differentiates with dots y as i or j (with a one or two dotts, uses y in any position, uses letters g and f, often uses double l (ll),  spells boga as woga. The combination zw is used. There is a lot less missing vowels and consonant, which is consistent with already established Czech language, the words are already properly separated, except for short prepositions that are attached to the next word as they are pronounced that way.
    The purpose of the writing was different: he wrote the prayer down in a writing style he was familiar to read, so that he could teach ordinary people to recite it. The language is strictly religious.
  
  The author of the Voynich manuscript has written down Slovenian language which existed in oral form only. If I am correct, he worked in a different monastery which was under different religious authority (German, not Italian like Stična Codex). He devised different alphabet with the intention for more permanent use: Latin z, no long s, h and c were the same as in Latin, did not use f or g, used ch for č, invented some new letters (EVA p, f, q (SLO-VA  p), combined il(j) (EVA m) to indicate Slavic ilj sound, used mirror image of b and s, redesigned t and k, and different letterform for r. He used o for the initial u, v or w, the letter y only in initial and final position, in the middle position he used i and ii (for ji, ij).  Besides that, the dialect is somewhat different:i instead of inu in Stična codex, no double letters, ct for st, instead of zv, cv, sv EVA p, f are used.  No double letters, no clear difference of 9-like y use (sometimes for g, like in Swabian Genner/Jenner).
  
  The subject matter and a dialect make big difference. Voynich Manuscript dialect is closer to Croatian than German which is even reflected in the use of y (i) for the word and (German und, Slovenian INU/INO).
  
  Comparing Stična Codex to VM requires to study each word: how it was formed in Old Church Slavonic (common Slavic language), how it evolved in different Slavic languages and dilects, what kind of spelling convention was used, how it was pronounced. 
  Croatian linguist Crnković pointed out two major things that relate to the Voynich Manuscripts: word blocks (combining several short unstressed words into one), dropped short and semi-vowels. Besides that, I noticed in his study of the Rules of St. Benedict that the space was often at the wrong place – particularly after r. That text is much more comparable to Voynich writing that Stična codex.
  As for the imaginary words: Slovenian word structure is very simple: from one letter words s, k, v, z, h, o to many two letter words: to, tu, ti, ta, te, to tod, tok, tol, tom, tod, tud, tuj, tur, tem, ter, tema, temen. These are not nonsense words, but meaningful Slovenian words.  
  Since most Slovenian roots were comprised of one syllable, new words were formed by adding or changing a letter, or changing the stress. So the chances are that if you take the syllabic tables used in early Slovenian Grammar books (like syllabic tables in the Augsburg manuscript, debated on Ninja), you can find many Slovenian words there. This works for longer syllables, too: chas or zhas – time, chast or zhast  – honour, chest or zhest – frequent, chustvo or zuhustvo – feeling. To create more 'nonsense' words, you add to these words various suffixes and you get different one or two syllable words: chas- chasa, chasu, chasom, chasi, pochasi, učasi...
  
  It is impossible to explain the complexity of the medieval Slovenian language. You might find some more information on the enclosed file.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  

  ---

• RE: Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

  ololololo > 09-07-2026, 08:03 AM

  Could anyone have read this book at the time?
  Why couldn't it be read in the 17th century?

• RE: Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

  cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 09-07-2026, 02:31 PM

  I believe that in the early15th century there was a great expectation of church reforms that would allow vernacular languages in literature. Also, the Slovenian dynasty of the Counts of Celje was hoping to establish a Slavic kingdom within the Holy Roman Empire and they would need a written language. In my opinion this is the reason why the author of the Voynich Manuscript did not accept German writing convention, but designated a different alphabet. 
  From the small fragments that were later found, it can be assumed that there were other efforts to write Slovenian in Latin letters, where either German or Italian writing convention was used. The Voynich writing is different, more influenced by Latin than by German. 
  I imagine there was a circle of Slovenian humanists who might know, or contribut to the creation of the Voynich Manuscript as an effort to start Slovenian literacy. Then the Church reform did not materialize, the last Count of Celje was assassinated and according to the previous Contract of inheritance, the Habsburgs inherited most the estates and ruled most Slavic lands. 
  The Church ideas of reforms that were generally acceptable before, particularly in the region of the present day Slovenia where the loyalty to Roman pope and Basel Church was divided, were suppressed after the Vienna Concordat in which German princes offered a loyalty to the Roman pope. Slovenian religious institution still adhered to the Basel ideas which was not acceptable to Roman Church.
  I suppose both of that made the use of Slovenian language no longer necessary from the position of the Habsburg rulers. The effort to establish written Slovenian language was thus suppressed until the Protestantism became full blown and the first Slovenian book was printed in 1550. Because the Church used Latin and secular language was German, Slovenian language remained in oral form only. Although several short fragments of written Slovenian were found before 1440, there seems to be no other fragments until the middle of the  16th century.
  Or perhaps the written material existed, but was confiscated or destroyed by CounterReformation, together with other Protestant books. If they were hidden in the castles and monasteries, they might be destroyed by fires during Turkish invasions and Peasant revolts.
  
  As for the unique Voynich alphabet, the most logical reason for its disappearance was the introduction of the printing presses towards the end of the 15th century. Most early books were printed in Germany and Venice. Their printers would not be interested in using a strange alphabet that did not fit their size of letters.
  
  Slovenian academic John Hoffler argued that Slovenian literacy would not be able to spread so fast if there was no prior written language. Also, according to some other Slovenian sources, the Slovenian Dictionary and Grammar Book  was allegedly written in around 1470, but since the book was not found, it can not be confirmed. The author is unknown, but some ascribed the authorship to Slovenian academics who taught Emperor Maximillian (the son of Frederic III) Slovenian. 
  
  By 17th century, Slovenians had already standardized language using the writing convention similar to German, their own liturgical books and even first attempts of literary writing. If the Voynich alphabet was used in the past for a brief period, it became a thing of the past, unknown to 17th csholars.

• RE: Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

  ololololo > 09-07-2026, 02:50 PM

  (09-07-2026, 02:34 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So if it is a cipher: just decipher it

  If only it were that simple...
  Just because you see a cipher, it doesn't mean you can decipher it. Similarly, just because you see text in a different language, it doesn't mean you can read it.

• RE: Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

  ololololo > 09-07-2026, 02:54 PM

  (09-07-2026, 02:31 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I believe that in the early15th century there was a great expectation of church reforms that would allow vernacular languages in literature. Also, the Slovenian dynasty of the Counts of Celje was hoping to establish a Slavic kingdom within the Holy Roman Empire and they would need a written language. In my opinion this is the reason why the author of the Voynich Manuscript did not accept German writing convention, but designated a different alphabet. 
  From the small fragments that were later found, it can be assumed that there were other efforts to write Slovenian in Latin letters, where either German or Italian writing convention was used. The Voynich writing is different, more influenced by Latin than by German. 
  I imagine there was a circle of Slovenian humanists who might know, or contribut to the creation of the Voynich Manuscript as an effort to start Slovenian literacy. Then the Church reform did not materialize, the last Count of Celje was assassinated and according to the previous Contract of inheritance, the Habsburgs inherited most the estates and ruled most Slavic lands. 
  The Church ideas of reforms that were generally acceptable before, particularly in the region of the present day Slovenia where the loyalty to Roman pope and Basel Church was divided, were suppressed after the Vienna Concordat in which German princes offered a loyalty to the Roman pope. Slovenian religious institution still adhered to the Basel ideas which was not acceptable to Roman Church.
  I suppose both of that made the use of Slovenian language no longer necessary from the position of the Habsburg rulers. The effort to establish written Slovenian language was thus suppressed until the Protestantism became full blown and the first Slovenian book was printed in 1550. Because the Church used Latin and secular language was German, Slovenian language remained in oral form only. Although several short fragments of written Slovenian were found before 1440, there seems to be no other fragments until the middle of the  16th century.
  Or perhaps the written material existed, but was confiscated or destroyed by CounterReformation, together with other Protestant books. If they were hidden in the castles and monasteries, they might be destroyed by fires during Turkish invasions and Peasant revolts.
  
  As for the unique Voynich alphabet, the most logical reason for its disappearance was the introduction of the printing presses towards the end of the 15th century. Most early books were printed in Germany and Venice. Their printers would not be interested in using a strange alphabet that did not fit their size of letters.
  
  Slovenian academic John Hoffler argued that Slovenian literacy would not be able to spread so fast if there was no prior written language. Also, according to some other Slovenian sources, the Slovenian Dictionary and Grammar Book  was allegedly written in around 1470, but since the book was not found, it can not be confirmed. The author is unknown, but some ascribed the authorship to Slovenian academics who taught Emperor Maximillian (the son of Frederic III) Slovenian. 
  
  By 17th century, Slovenians had already standardized language using the writing convention similar to German, their own liturgical books and even first attempts of literary writing. If the Voynich alphabet was used in the past for a brief period, it became a thing of the past, unknown to 17th csholars.

  Okay, but there is a question about the purpose of the VMS. Why didn't they translate a more well-known book, like the Bible?

• RE: Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

  cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 09-07-2026, 06:30 PM

  I believe that in the early15th century there was a great expectation of church reforms that would allow vernacular languages in literature. Also, the Slovenian dynasty of the Counts of Celje was hoping to establish a Slavic kingdom within the Holy Roman Empire and they would need a written language. In my opinion this is the reason why the author of the Voynich Manuscript did not accept German writing convention, but designated a different alphabet. 
  From the small fragments that were later found, it can be assumed that there were other efforts to write Slovenian in Latin letters, where either German or Italian writing convention was used. The Voynich writing is different, more influenced by Latin than by German. 
  I imagine there was a circle of Slovenian humanists who might know, or contribut to the creation of the Voynich Manuscript as an effort to start Slovenian literacy. Then the Church reform did not materialize, the last Count of Celje was assassinated and according to the previous Contract of inheritance, the Habsburgs inherited most the estates and ruled most Slavic lands. 
  The Church ideas of reforms that were generally acceptable before, particularly in the region of the present day Slovenia where the loyalty to Roman pope and Basel Church was divided, were suppressed after the Vienna Concordat in which German princes offered a loyalty to the Roman pope. Slovenian religious institution still adhered to the Basel ideas which was not acceptable to Roman Church.
  I suppose both of that made the use of Slovenian language no longer necessary from the position of the Habsburg rulers. The effort to establish written Slovenian language was thus suppressed until the Protestantism became full blown and the first Slovenian book was printed in 1550. Because the Church used Latin and secular language was German, Slovenian language remained in oral form only. Although several short fragments of written Slovenian were found before 1440, there seems to be no other fragments until the middle of the  16th century.
  Or perhaps the written material existed, but was confiscated or destroyed by CounterReformation, together with other Protestant books. If they were hidden in the castles and monasteries, they might be destroyed by fires during Turkish invasions and Peasant revolts.
  
  As for the unique Voynich alphabet, the most logical reason for its disappearance was the introduction of the printing presses towards the end of the 15th century. Most early books were printed in Germany and Venice. Their printers would not be interested in using a strange alphabet that did not fit their size of letters.
  
  Slovenian academic John Hoffler argued that Slovenian literacy would not be able to spread so fast if there was no prior written language. Also, according to some other Slovenian sources, the Slovenian Dictionary and Grammar Book  was allegedly written in around 1470, but since the book was not found, it can not be confirmed. The author is unknown, but some ascribed the authorship to Slovenian academics who taught Emperor Maximillian (the son of Frederic III) Slovenian. 
  
  By 17th century, Slovenians had already standardized language using the writing convention similar to German, their own liturgical books and even first attempts of literary writing. If the Voynich alphabet was used in the past for a brief period, it became a thing of the past, unknown to 17th csholars.

• RE: Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

  Rafal > 10-07-2026, 01:52 PM

  Cvetka, in the past several people suggested that you publish a reading of some complete page.
  Just one, your favourite page.
  
  Lets sum up the facts:
  
  - you are sure it is Slovenian
  - you claim that you can read the alphabet. in the past you gave reading of a lot of words (actually cherry-picked ones if you ask me)
  - you speak Slovenian
  
  You should really be able to do it if your claims are true.
  
  So why after all these years all we have is  stuff like "dam dar podam dodam dam dam"? Why not anyhing longer and making more sense? Why just these fairytales about Slovenian humanists, Habsburgs etc.?

• RE: Cvetka's Slovenian Theory Thread

  cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 11-07-2026, 12:18 AM

  (09-07-2026, 02:54 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Okay, but there is a question about the purpose of the VMS. Why didn't they translate a more well-known book, like the Bible?

  What would be a point in translating the Bible, if nobody knew how to read it? When the Slovenian protestant writers in the mid-16th century started to write a book, they started with the alphabet and basic religious teaching. 
  As far as I am able to determine, there might be several reasons why the VM was written and remained unbounded for some time. 
  My theory is based on the assumption that the author(s) was a Carthusian prior Nicholas Kampf from Strasbourg who spent over 20 years in Slovenia (1447-1451) in Geirach (Jurklošter), Pleterje (1461-1467) and again at Jurklošter from 1467-1479).  In 1479, he retired at Gaming Abbey where he died on Nov.20,1497. At the time, there was strong connection between Strasbourg and Slovenia. Slovenian language was spoken in much larger area as today and was considered one of the main languages spoken in Germanic word.
  
  Kemp attained masters degree at Vienna University and taught for several years before he entered into Carthusian order in the Abbey of Gaming at the age of 40, because he was disappointment over the corruption in the Society. Not much is known about him, except that he was one of the greatest 15th century Carthusian reformer, an educator, theologian, mystic and mystical poet. His poems were lost and most of his other work. Only five books are preserved at the Jesuite archive in Graz, but they were never translated, or studied, until 1970s, when a book about his work was written.
  Why do I suspect he was the author? It is documented that he was a poet, yet his poems were never found. An educated Catholic, disappointed over corruption in the Church and State, more likely turns to poetry, particularly after the death of a loved one. And the genuine Christian poets on the mystical journey were more likely to seek refuge in a monastery, because there was no psychiatrists and psychologist to treat their depression and anxiety.
  There would be no problem for him to obtain old parchment in the monastic environment, just like there would be no problem for him to get additional scribes for his project.
  The circular pictures look like they deal with astrology and Zodiac, but there are no calendar pages, or calculus to calculate  the calendars. Other illustrations differ greatly from the German Hausbuchs, although the names of the month later added show a lot of similarity. I believe they represent two layers of writing: a simple for simple people - individual words used in phrases and sentences (without punctuation), and the secret layer representing author's own meditations. The individual words (labels) have no translation into any other language, which makes me believe they were used by the author as a teaching tool, or as mnemonic device for consistent writing of the words he was already familiar with.
  The role of prior was to teach monks and lay brothers to read and write. At the time when it was expected that vernacular language might be used in liturgy and in secular life, this might be one of the motives why he would develop Slovenian alphabet and write in Slovenian. He would also have to teach them about the Biblical stories, although he did not use Church iconography. 
  Being a mystic, he would use esoteric language to speak about mystical things normal people would not understand and could be confused about. He used floral and animal analogies.
  It is also possible that his writing was considered heretical, because by the mid-15th century the Roman Church suppressed descending ideas and did no longer tolerate critics. Hussite and Valdensians were persecuted. Kemp was accused of 'immorality' in his old age, which most likely means, that he was critical of the Church, which he was.
  
  If I am correct, it would make sense that he was carrying this manuscript with him as he moved from monastery to monastery. Even in Gaming, he it would be useful to him, since he was training  leaders for eastern European Carthusian monasteries.
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