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• Influence of Parisian Sources

• RE: Influence of Parisian Sources

  Bernd > 04-07-2026, 10:41 PM

  Is it possible that those 'Parisian' works, especially those for the Duke of Berry, were created by the same workshop / artists, or at least that the artists of the later works had sketchbooks with the illustrations of earlier works?
  There is a possible connection from Franco-Flemish artists and illuminators around the Limbourg Brothers, who created the Duke of Berry's manuscripts, to Italy and Taccola's circle via You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. This is probably how Taccola got the inspiration for his sun-star, which Paolo used extensively. However, I haven't been able to fin any famous Franco-Flemish artists who visited Italy during this time. But a lot of young artists and craftsmen from all over Europe went to Italy to study.
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  I have not seen a reverse connection from Taccola to France or Burgundy and the Valois- which would also be too late for the VM. So my proposed connection would be that one or several artists who had been involved in the mentioned Franco-Flemish works traveled to Italy and influenced the VM artist there. One of the many mysteries surrounding the VM is how the artist gained access to so many top-notch manuscripts to copy from. I think it is more likely that he copied from artists sketchbooks than from the finished manuscripts in royal libraries or collections. But all of this is little more than speculations...

• RE: Influence of Parisian Sources

  R. Sale > 05-07-2026, 12:50 AM

  Speculation offers a number of pathways to transmit these structural and visual influences. Was there personal contact with the original artists? Was some, most, or all of it borrowed from library texts? There are other sources of influence beyond Paris, so the VMs artist must have done some traveling. The history of Paris in the first half of the 15th C. opens any number of possibilities.
  
  Harley 334 is a secondary reference in the cosmic comparison, but it also provides the best historical comparison for the mermaid plus four companions found in Harley and the VMs. Despite the general similarities there are certain differences. In Harley there is a generic mermaid and four fish. In the VMs there is a woman whose lower legs are seen to be in a fish's mouth, and the companions are now four strange animals.
  
  The VMs image is not a mermaid. Mermaids do not have thighs. It's either a female version of Jonah and the whale, or a representation of pagan Melusine - specifically Melusine of Luxemburg, the mermaid-like version, and not Melusine of Lusignan, the flying, dragon-like version.
  
  Jean de Berry has several connections to mythical Melusine. He won Lusignan castle in the Hundred Years War. He was depicted in Tres Riches Heures, and so is Lusignan castle with a little, flying dragon. He patronized Jean de Arras' book about Lusignan Melusine. And he was the son of Bonne of Luxemburg and a proclaimed descendant of mythical Melusine of Luxemburg along with his siblings.

• RE: Influence of Parisian Sources

  R. Sale > 19-08-2026, 10:13 PM

  An arcaded fountain - left side, middle.
  
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• RE: Influence of Parisian Sources

  Dana Scott > 20-08-2026, 07:01 AM

  (05-07-2026, 12:50 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Speculation offers a number of pathways to transmit these structural and visual influences. Was there personal contact with the original artists? Was some, most, or all of it borrowed from library texts? There are other sources of influence beyond Paris, so the VMs artist must have done some traveling. The history of Paris in the first half of the 15th C. opens any number of possibilities.
  
  Harley 334 is a secondary reference in the cosmic comparison, but it also provides the best historical comparison for the mermaid plus four companions found in Harley and the VMs. Despite the general similarities there are certain differences. In Harley there is a generic mermaid and four fish. In the VMs there is a woman whose lower legs are seen to be in a fish's mouth, and the companions are now four strange animals.
  
  The VMs image is not a mermaid. Mermaids do not have thighs. It's either a female version of Jonah and the whale, or a representation of pagan Melusine - specifically Melusine of Luxemburg, the mermaid-like version, and not Melusine of Lusignan, the flying, dragon-like version.
  
  Jean de Berry has several connections to mythical Melusine. He won Lusignan castle in the Hundred Years War. He was depicted in Tres Riches Heures, and so is Lusignan castle with a little, flying dragon. He patronized Jean de Arras' book about Lusignan Melusine. And he was the son of Bonne of Luxemburg and a proclaimed descendant of mythical Melusine of Luxemburg along with his siblings.

  
  A comparison of the VMs fish image to the incarnation of the first Vishnu Matsya Avatar fish might be of interest.
  
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• RE: Influence of Parisian Sources

  R. Sale > 20-08-2026, 10:52 PM

  It seems to be an example of similar visual imagery being found in alternative cultures. My first impression of the Matsya Vishnu illustrations is the similarity to representations of Jonah and the whale. However, in the biblical story Jonah and the whale are obviously two separate entities. Does that also apply to the Indian avatar manifestation? Is the fish part a separate being or just an aspect of the manifestation? Vishnu certainly appears in other manifestations.
  
  Alternatively, the mermaid. Once a mermaid, always a mermaid - from the medieval perspective - a nameless, generic mermaid. But mermaids don't have thighs. The VMs representation appears to be female. In contrast to Vishnu and Jonah.
  
  The use of singular objects of comparison can open up a broad range of examples. Actual validity can be difficult to discern. The presence of paired comparisons, based on the laws of Deuteronomy, is much more restrictive.
  
  Melusine of Luxembourg is not a Parisian connection. It is a Valois connection for the children of Bonne of Luxembourg.
  
  The BNF Fr. 565 text and other manuscripts of interest were owned by Jean de Berry, son of Bonne, and later by his daughter, Marie, Duchess of Auvergne. So, this is a Valois connection.
  
  The VMs critter, the notorious armadillo, has otherwise been identified with the Order of the Golden Fleece and the Burgundian state under Philip the Good. This is a Valois connection.
  
  In that illustration, the part played by the nebuly line also suggests the image contains structural elements derived from the Agnus Dei of BNF Fr. 13096 f.18, a book that was part of the Burgundian library. This is a Valois connection.
  
  And if we go a bit further and compare the nymphs with the ring and the cross to the reported dreams of Colette of Corbie from her biography, she was not only contemporary to the first half of the 15th C., she was patronized by both the houses of Burgundy and Auvergne. Another Valois connection.
  
  How many avatars of Vishnu have been discovered in the VMs?
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