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f77v top nymphs
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RE: f77v top nymphs
MarcoP > 08-11-2017, 02:01 PM
Hi Koen,
with reference to "anatomical interpretations" of Quire 13 you wrote:
(07-11-2017, 08:04 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My real objection is, as I wrote in my latest blog post, that the specific organs as they are evoked here, do not correspond at all to the way medievals thought about these organs. We recognize them because exposure to modern medical diagrams has engrained specific shapes in our mind of the carefully isolated, idealized organ.
I have not been able to find an early 15th century depiction of the ovaries or uterus yet in which the horizontal properties are emphasized like this. Or anything close to our modern image of these organs, which the VM structure resembles. If such an early 15thC (or earlier) image were found, it would provide some basis for the organic theory.
While the properly bathing folios of Quire 13 (Q13b) are partly paralleled by bathing manuscripts (like Petrus de Eboli) the "pipes" folios (Quire13a) are mostly unparalleled. One can find a parallel for isolated details, but what appears to be the main subject of these pages (the pipes) remain unexplained. What I like about the anatomical interpretation is that it addresses what seems to me to be the main question: what are the pipes? I think there are medieval manuscripts that can be usefully compared with these illustrations, e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (England, 1292 ca). It's quite clear that whoever produced this ms had a good knowledge of human anatomy. The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. seems quite realistic. Also, anatomical details are mostly represented in abstract pipe-like schemes. While the illustration of the female reproductive apparatus can be compared with the top of f77v, this certainly isn't the best parallel between Ashmole 399 and the VMS (I am more convinced of the "intestines" lower in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
I believe that the top of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might just as well represent the bladder and kidneys, as proposed by Rene You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
To me, the main problem is that, if Voynich Q13a illustrations are anatomical, they are quite anomalous because of the nymphs: Ashmole 399 is a perfectly scientific work, with no imaginary of symbolic elements. Illustrations might have been simplified for clarity, but I don't see many traces of non-realistic elements. The frames of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. do include spurious non-functional elements, but they are clearly segregated in the margins and don't interfere with the accuracy of the main illustrations.
In conclusion, the tradition that might explain the "pipes" can't explain the nymphs. Numberless cycles (historical, mythical, astronomical, allegorical, medical) include many human figures and might explain something of the nymphs, but they don't explain the "pipes". -
RE: f77v top nymphs
-JKP- > 08-11-2017, 02:10 PM
I've often wondered if the "pipes" (which many have equated to the elements) represent the humors (bile, blood, etc.).
Western designations were usually black bile, yellow bile, blood, and phlegm but I imagine there were other systems relating to bodily fluids (and there are five pipes, not four).
The stuff coming out of them looks more like elements (water, air, fire, earth, and possibly spirit/ether) but... maybe something biological was intended. -
RE: f77v top nymphs
Wladimir D > 13-11-2017, 03:45 PM
(08-11-2017, 02:10 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've often wondered if the "pipes" (which many have equated to the elements) represent the humors (bile, blood, etc.).
Western designations were usually black bile, yellow bile, blood, and phlegm but I imagine there were other systems relating to bodily fluids (and there are five pipes, not four).
The stuff coming out of them looks more like elements (water, air, fire, earth, and possibly spirit/ether) but... maybe something biological was intended.
My quote from the Russian forum for the top picture of the previous page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (2 years ago)
Any engineer, looking at this drawing, will understand that six signatures correspond to the segments (sections) between the branch pipes, and not the denotation of the nozzles themselves .... And seven inlets of the "intestine" symbolize seven organs of man: - liver (fire), lungs (air, vapor), skeleton (SAND, STONES), brain / soul (ether, empty), kidneys (liquid), anal and mouth ... On the right - oral input (jet in the mouth), indicated 6 preparations from plants to affect the specific organ. Left - anal input (enema). -
RE: f77v top nymphs
Wladimir D > 26-02-2019, 05:33 PM
I find a strange analogy (symbolism) of the picture on the Egyptian pyramidion. The wingspan, and especially - the triple "udder".
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RE: f77v top nymphs
Koen G > 17-06-2019, 07:16 PM
Going over the pictures in JKP's latest post, I noticed a similarity in some of the pictures with f77v. Specifically, the seven seals of the Lamb in the image (early 14th century CCCC MS 20) resemble the three dangly bits below the nymph. I haven't found any reference to this on the forum but VViews already mentioned the lamb imagery You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in relation to the pangolin.
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RE: f77v top nymphs
-JKP- > 17-06-2019, 10:07 PM
I just clicked on the link you posted, Koen and when I saw VView's Agnus Dei pics, I thought to myself, did I get the Agnus Dei idea from here and not credit VViews? It does matter to me that people get credited and VViews has posted many good links and blogs.
But then I looked back to see when I posted about the golden fleece and theriac (which includes the castorum beaver) because I was already collecting fleeces, beavers, pangolins (not my idea), and Agnus Dei pics as potential candidates for 80v, plus I was hunting for dragons (which I still haven't posted) and long-necked bulls.
I remember being annoyed that I couldn't figure out which of the many possibilities might be better for 80v, and thought if I found more pics the fog would clear...
.
... that didn't happen.
Years later, hundreds more medieval pics, and the fog is as thick as ever—I find the "pangolin" as frustratingly ambiguous as the first time I saw it.
And here's the other side to it... I'm not even sure 80v is meant to be an animal in the literal sense. Apropos this thread, I think the ideas of Konstellations or of classical narrative (e.g., Ovid) deserve real consideration, even though some people have expressed skepticism about them. I think it's possible the critter on 80v might be some abstract or allegorical extension of those ideas.
(I also really like Marco's examples in posts 23 and 24 of how one might interpret medieval iconographical arrangements.) -
RE: f77v top nymphs
Linda > 18-06-2019, 12:37 PM
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RE: f77v top nymphs
nablator > 18-06-2019, 01:00 PM
(18-06-2019, 12:39 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(18-06-2019, 12:37 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do we know what the triple udder is in the pyramidion?
I think they may be flasks of some kind. Note the flat bottoms for standing.
Not flat actually: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Gardiner P8 hieroglyph. Oar: determinative of voice; oar; logogram voice. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
3 times indicates plural.