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Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
- Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
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RE: Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
ololololo > 12-06-2026, 11:24 AM
(12-06-2026, 10:37 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I promise to learn how to quote in the near future (I still haven't figured out where to click).(11-06-2026, 10:42 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But at the bottom (especially near the bottom-left A, for example, I can clearly see a T there), you can make out the remnants of the text in Voynichese.
That is probably see-through of the text on page f116r. No?
Quote:It seems strange that the "cleaner" tried to restore the inscriptions by stylizing them as a German font. The page may have contained a mixture of German and Voynichese words, but the cleaner was only able to recover the upper ones (and not entirely accurately).
I believe that the page had only 3-4 lines of pure Voynichese at the top. The person who tried to recover the written text apparently did not know the Voynichese alphabet. Either he was an Owner who had not spent any time studying the text, or the clumsy visitor who spilled the water and tried to fix the damage before the Owner saw it, or some librarian who had to recover a bunch of books that were damaged by a roof leak...
All the best, --stolfi
PS. When replying to a long post, please try to trim the quoted text to the specific points you are replying to.
Yes, I'm talking about this text. Just to point out that you can still see the rest of the text, which means that the entire page was written, not just the top. -
RE: Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
Bernd > 12-06-2026, 04:53 PM
Jorge has his retracer theory, but even though I played around with the multispectral images for a long time, I could not find any sign of re-tracing or underlying Voynichese source text in the marginalia. I wouldn't rule it out but frankly I find it unlikely. It does appear however that the author did change, mingle or amend some of the 'latin-alphabet' text.
What stands out is that all 3 marginalia are created after the same pattern.
They contain a small drawing, some (ordinary looking?) Voynichese words, and text that appears to be in a German or Romance language but has nonsensical words and very odd letters. As if the scribe changed his mind while writing them. I have been wondering if whoever made this was able to write Voynichese fluently, but not the Latin script. Then again, most letters appear fine and ordinary as our attempts to find similarly shaped letters in other contemporary manuscripts have shown. Not like a non-European foreigner trying to learn how to write our script. I have no idea what to make of this, but looking at the overall manuscript, I doubt the author was a genius that tried to trick us with some ingenious obfuscation.
Of special interest:
All marginalia are accompanied by at least one small drawing that matches the general style of the quire. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has an alpha-plant flower which resembles the calyx of the plant on f24v, the same bifolio. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has the person lying on the ground with by small objects beside him. The person resembles those on f57v, the same bifolio
An exception is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with the nymph, goat and whatever the thing on top is, as this quire contains no further imagery aside from stars. I would rate the nymph on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as the most advanced in the manuscript though. It looks much more life-like and 3-dimensional than the others. Opinions vary, but this would mean that the marginalia on the last page were also added late in the VM's history, while the others were probably added shortly after the text of the page was completed. Unless we argue they were all made by different people, which brings its own problems. To me it looks like all VM imagery and the marginalia were created by the same person, over an extended time period in which the artist experienced some artistic development. Which still doesn't answer why there is Voyniches mixed into the marginalia. -
RE: Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
ololololo > 12-06-2026, 09:05 PM
(12-06-2026, 04:53 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As if the scribe changed his mind while writing them.
It may be that the Latin text was written simply as such, without the intention of copying the lost text of the manuscript. For even if he tried to restore the text, I do not understand why crosses were needed between the words, and how exactly this text was "corrected" (the author wrote in Latin, but left the Voynichese d at the end of the word oladaba).
Also, if you look closely, you can see the remains of text on the Voynichese above the word maria. There is also something visible on the top. It is unclear why the restorer wrote between the lines.
(12-06-2026, 04:53 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An exception is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with the nymph, goat and whatever the thing on top is, as this quire contains no further imagery aside from stars.
The drawings may have been made by a restorer, because they are too small and do not resemble the author's style (especially the nymph, as you pointed out). -
RE: Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
Bernd > 12-06-2026, 09:37 PM
(12-06-2026, 09:05 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The drawings may have been made by a restorer, because they are too small and do not resemble the author's style (especially the nymph, as you pointed out).
But they do indeed strongly resemble the author's style. I would rate the possibility that another person made the marginal drawings as very low. Just as I'd rate the possibility that several people made the drawings in the VM as very low. The style evolves yet shows strong consistency throughout the manuscript. -
RE: Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
Bluetoes101 > 13-06-2026, 12:49 AM
My own thought on this was that the person writing didn't have a word in their language to use.
I think it might be like people writing the "many names of God, Jesus or Maria" in a charm/curse. At the time people put a lot of weight in knowing the true name of "whoever" because that would mean they have to answer / pay attention. You can find examples of the true name of god being a hundred or more names, because people didn't know and so just gave them all a whirl in the hope one would work. I think it is possible we see this same thing with "Marix Morix Abia Ma Ria", looking for the "true name of "Maria"".
You can see this idea survive today in things like Japanese storytelling where if you know the name of the wind, or river you may control them (Any "Spirited Away" fans?)
Some of the ideas shown in this thread where not what I expected though and good food for thought. I'm glad there were no "its step 3 in the coding, step 2 is the "plain text" and step 1 is the "actual plain text".. because that one scares me
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RE: Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
monisusa > 21-06-2026, 01:07 PM
(11-06-2026, 11:05 AM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it was right the opposite:
those (much) later added words from „poxleber“ (it isn‘t) to „mich“ (it isn‘t) are surrounding the 2 Voynichese words „aror Shey“, but do not build a complete sentence with them — maybe the „poxleber“ scribe did not even knew the meaning of both VMS things and was not able to include them.
How to get there?
- the „spell“ with +‘s ends just above those Vords, the last sequence follows with a slight offset downwards
- at this point (and overall), used ink for add-ons looks different from VMS ink
- this last page seems to have served for some VMS scribble drawings and Vords, more like a test field
- writer changed to partially cursive/kurrent scribing, which is not appearing in VMS main text and -time period. (this is also regarding the „months‘ names“)
Hello, I refer to this subject in my study on folio 116v. The text has a coherent and logical meaning. I transcribed it in its entirety. You can find it now on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Hope you enjoy it. Monika -
RE: Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
monisusa > 21-06-2026, 01:14 PM
(13-06-2026, 12:49 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My own thought on this was that the person writing didn't have a word in their language to use.
I think it might be like people writing the "many names of God, Jesus or Maria" in a charm/curse. At the time people put a lot of weight in knowing the true name of "whoever" because that would mean they have to answer / pay attention. You can find examples of the true name of god being a hundred or more names, because people didn't know and so just gave them all a whirl in the hope one would work. I think it is possible we see this same thing with "Marix Morix Abia Ma Ria", looking for the "true name of "Maria"".
You can see this idea survive today in things like Japanese storytelling where if you know the name of the wind, or river you may control them (Any "Spirited Away" fans?)
Some of the ideas shown in this thread where not what I expected though and good food for thought. I'm glad there were no "its step 3 in the coding, step 2 is the "plain text" and step 1 is the "actual plain text".. because that one scares me
Hi, there are frequent misreadings of the gothic characters. The v is often mixed up with r! Therefore the correct reading is ma vix, mo vix (vix refers to a historical Bavarian word meaning "wax", azia, ma+via. It is all explained in my study on folio 116v published on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. There are surprising new findings. The study consists of twenty pages. I transcribed the texts in its entirety. Enjoy reading it.
Kind regards, Monika -
RE: Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
monisusa > 21-06-2026, 01:21 PM
[quote="Bluetoes101" pid='85701' dateline='1781308140']
My own thought on this was that the person writing didn't have a word in their language to use.
I think it might be like people writing the "many names of God, Jesus or Maria" in a charm/curse. At the time people put a lot of weight in knowing the true name of "whoever" because that would mean they have to answer / pay attention. You can find examples of the true name of god being a hundred or more names, because people didn't know and so just gave them all a whirl in the hope one would work. I think it is possible we see this same thing with "Marix Morix Abia Ma Ria", looking for the "true name of "Maria"".
You can see this idea survive today in things like Japanese storytelling where if you know the name of the wind, or river you may control them (Any "Spirited Away" fans?)
Some of the ideas shown in this thread where not what I expected though and good food for thought. I'm glad there were no "its step 3 in the coding, step 2 is the "plain text" and step 1 is the "actual plain text".. because that one scares me
-
RE: Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
monisusa > 22-06-2026, 09:57 AM
(11-06-2026, 11:05 AM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it was right the opposite:
those (much) later added words from „poxleber“ (it isn‘t) to „mich“ (it isn‘t) are surrounding the 2 Voynichese words „aror Shey“, but do not build a complete sentence with them — maybe the „poxleber“ scribe did not even knew the meaning of both VMS things and was not able to include them.
How to get there?
- the „spell“ with +‘s ends just above those Vords, the last sequence follows with a slight offset downwards
- at this point (and overall), used ink for add-ons looks different from VMS ink
- this last page seems to have served for some VMS scribble drawings and Vords, more like a test field
- writer changed to partially cursive/kurrent scribing, which is not appearing in VMS main text and -time period. (this is also regarding the „months‘ names“)
(21-06-2026, 01:14 PM)monisusa Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(13-06-2026, 12:49 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My own thought on this was that the person writing didn't have a word in their language to use.
I think it might be like people writing the "many names of God, Jesus or Maria" in a charm/curse. At the time people put a lot of weight in knowing the true name of "whoever" because that would mean they have to answer / pay attention. You can find examples of the true name of god being a hundred or more names, because people didn't know and so just gave them all a whirl in the hope one would work. I think it is possible we see this same thing with "Marix Morix Abia Ma Ria", looking for the "true name of "Maria"".
You can see this idea survive today in things like Japanese storytelling where if you know the name of the wind, or river you may control them (Any "Spirited Away" fans?)
Some of the ideas shown in this thread where not what I expected though and good food for thought. I'm glad there were no "its step 3 in the coding, step 2 is the "plain text" and step 1 is the "actual plain text".. because that one scares me
Hi, there are frequent misreadings of the gothic characters. The v is often mixed up with r! Therefore the correct reading is ma vix, mo vix (vix refers to a historical Bavarian word meaning "wax", azia, ma+via. It is all explained in my study on folio 116v published on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. There are surprising new findings. The study consists of twenty pages. I transcribed the texts in its entirety. Enjoy reading it.
Kind regards, Monika -
RE: Why are there "Voynichese" words mixed in?
monisusa > 22-06-2026, 10:01 AM
(11-06-2026, 08:55 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The below is a speculation, but if the Voynich manuscript is a ciphered codex, it seems to make sense.
The marginalia are mnemonics for the key that would allow a person who knows the principles upon which the cipher is built to read the text.
Let's assume Voynichese is a cipher. Given then the Voynichese is not fully made of characters of any known alphabet, the cipher almost certainly has a substitution step, where after some preprocessing (whatever it be: chunking, permutations, transpositions, numeric coding, etc) resulting Voynichese sequences are substituted with plaintext (let's suppose Latin) characters. This mapping of the preprocessed result to Latin is likely arbitrary, in the sense that you still need to remember the actual mapping tables, even if you knew exactly how the preprocessing step worked. This creates a problem for the author of the encoding system, if the substitution tables are lost or forgotten, recovering them may be a very hard process, and even knowing how the cipher works won't easily yield the plaintext. Basically, we have just had You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (good example, bad puzzle), where the basic principle was identified very quickly, but the actual mapping took years to uncover with complex modern computational techniques.
The solution to this problem is too keep the substitution table in the manuscript as a quick mnemonic that would be self evident for a person who knows how the cipher works, but won't make any sense for anybody else. Maybe there is some interplay between the list of Voynichese characters from 1r or 57v with the Latin phrase from 116v, maybe they are unrelated and the whole mnemonic is contained in 116v, or maybe parts of the mnemonic are hidden on different pages (116v and 17r).
Including Voynichese in the mnemonic may let the reader quickly verify that they understood the mnemonic correctly, in which case Voynichese probably just encodes the plaintext sequence that comes immediately before or after it. The table is structured in a way that makes it similar to some phrase, to hide its purpose.
A quick practical example of how a mnemonic may work, that certainly has nothing to do with the actual Voynichese. Imagine a cipher that is made of glyphs @#%^*+$ (this exact sequence of seven glyphs is written at the beginning of the book), and you know that 2 glyphs should encode a single Latin character.
On the last page of the book there is the following:
MICHITON ODALABAS MULTAS PORTAS ZYWEG FOX VHEK JUSQ MARIA (49 Latin characters with some spaces thrown in to make it look like a phrase, which it is not)
Then there is the following line
#@@##@++#^ NINJA SEARV WHIL IT'S STIL COLDE
Can you use this mnemonic to recreate the cipher table and decode the following:
#%@$ *%*^ +*#@^%*% @#*+ @+@^+^ $%#^#@%^%#@%$*@*^#%+ $+^@ #+ +%*$%@+@
How this works exactly:
This way you only have to remember the basic idea that you map two glyphs to a single character and that by combining the sequence of glyphs @#%^*+$ from the first page with the strange phrase from the end of the book you can always recreate the mapping.
There is also a not very encouraging alternative that the manuscript is meaningless and the inscription on the last page is just made to look like a mnemonic for the key to give prospective buyers some hope of decoding the manuscript, but actually means nothing. In this case including the pieces of the ciphertext is just a way of showing that this inscription was made by the original author and not by a later clueless owner.