- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
Double lobster
- Double lobster
-
RE: Double lobster
Jorge_Stolfi > 23-02-2026, 10:08 PM
(22-02-2026, 03:23 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Pisces in the Voynich Manuscript seems to be one of the more traditional illustrations. The meaning of the string/cord is still a mystery to me.
From Wikipedia: "Pisces is a constellation of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Its vast bulk — and main asterism viewed in most European cultures per You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as a distant pair of fishes connected by one cord each that join at an apex."
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Double lobster
Dana Scott > 24-02-2026, 12:26 AM
(23-02-2026, 10:08 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(22-02-2026, 03:23 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Pisces in the Voynich Manuscript seems to be one of the more traditional illustrations. The meaning of the string/cord is still a mystery to me.
From Wikipedia: "Pisces is a constellation of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Its vast bulk — and main asterism viewed in most European cultures per You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as a distant pair of fishes connected by one cord each that join at an apex."
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
All the best, --stolfi
Of interest to me is the fact that the "string/cord" connections in the VMS are between Pisces and Stars, not fish to fish?
Regards,
Dana Scott -
RE: Double lobster
pjburkshire > 24-02-2026, 02:17 AM
(24-02-2026, 12:26 AM)Dana Scott Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Of interest to me is the fact that the "string/cord" connections in the VMS are between Pisces and Stars, not fish to fish?
A good point. Also, do the strings between the fish and the stars have the same meaning as the strings between the stars and nymphs? -
RE: Double lobster
Jorge_Stolfi > 24-02-2026, 06:52 PM
(24-02-2026, 12:26 AM)Dana Scott Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Of interest to me is the fact that the "string/cord" connections in the VMS are between Pisces and Stars, not fish to fish?
I bet that one day we will find a manuscript from that time with a drawing of the Pisces constellation where the string between the two fish is interrupted by two stars (alpha and eta?).
And so our brave Scribe thought that the part of the string between the two stars was irrelevant, and what mattered was only that each fish was connected to a star...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Double lobster
rikforto > 22-04-2026, 03:45 AM
I have a small but tantalizing observation about this. It began by noticing that Pisces is unique for having 30 labels but one of them is in the center.
In the paranatellonta traditions that people on this thread are citing, the first degree is often fairly obviously associated with the sign at hand---two brothers for Gemini, a man with a bull for Taurus, and Hercules with the lion's head for Leo. (The first of those presents a small problem with this speculation, by the way.) Sometimes it is less obvious; Pisces as two men with one head seems to me to be related to the cord tying the two heads together. In this view, however, note Sagittarius is problematic, unless someone more literate than I sees how either the three birds in Astromagia or the three headless men elsewhere arose.
The other fact is that in the VMS Pisces---albeit, Pisces alone---seems to count degrees including the central sign. The inconsistency makes it hard to say with certainty, but conjecture with me that the first degree and the sign are conflated in the artist's mind.
There are four signs with two human figures in these sources: Pisces, Gemini, Capricorn, and Cancer. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. gives, "Ascendit vir et mulier manibus iuncti simul letantes":
Like the two men with one head given for Pisces, they are touching, would could, if you'll humor me, explain the band between the two crawfish in the VMS as a recontextualization of the cord in Pisces.
This does not, admittedly, help with the stars, no in Pisces nor in Scorpio and Virgo.
I am not prepared to defend this read to the death or anything---there's too much speculation and reliance on trying to interpret the drawings for that---but it was something I wondered while reading up on the ascendents. -
RE: Double lobster
Jorge_Stolfi > 22-04-2026, 04:17 PM
(22-04-2026, 03:45 AM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have a small but tantalizing observation about this. It began by noticing that Pisces is unique for having 30 labels but one of them is in the center. [...] VMS Pisces---albeit, Pisces alone---seems to count degrees including the central sign.
As I wrote elsewhere, I believe that (A) the only essential information contents of each Zodiac diagram is the ordered list of 30 labels, and the approximate correspondence of whatever period is covered by the diagram with a sign of the Western Zodiac; (B) the stars, nymphs, and tubs are only decoration and do not convey any additional information; © the circular text is meaningful but not essential, being trimmed to fit the available space.
In the case of Pisces, I believe that the Scribe made an error while counting the stars that he had drawn, and at first he thought that he was short of 2 stars; so he drew 2 additional stars in the central medallion. In fact he had drawn 19 stars in the bands, so now the diagram has 31 stars.
Then, when he wrote the labels next to the nymphs, he found that he had actually drawn only 19 nymphs. So he wrote the last label at the center too.
Another explanation for the 2 stars at the center is that he copied them from an astronomical drawing of the constellation, but misundertstanding it. See my previous post on this thread.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Double lobster
R. Sale > 22-04-2026, 07:15 PM
In the standard liturgical calendar, Pisces is always February. February never needs more than 29 days. In the VMs, it's always been said that the month names in the Zodiac medallions were produced under some subsequent and secondary context that is one month in advance of the liturgical schedule. In short, Pisces is labelled "Mars". So, where did that 30th day go???
The patterns on the tubs are more than just decoration. They correspond to patterns in armorial heraldry. Reading the heraldic language demonstrates the presence of specific historical grounding despite a dualistic disguise.
Significant sections of circular text may be designated by patterned markers of various types.
The structural juxtaposition of these two elements [heraldic tub and patterned marker] occurs uniquely on VMs White Aries. -
RE: Double lobster
Jorge_Stolfi > 23-04-2026, 01:40 AM
(22-04-2026, 07:15 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The patterns on the tubs are more than just decoration. They correspond to patterns in armorial heraldry.
I see two problems with this theory.
First, tubs only occur on the diagrams of Aries 1, Aries 2, and Taurus 1, on the inner band of Taurus 2, and on the outer band of Pisces. Horizontal "barrels" occur only on the the inner band of Pisces.
From the (bad) quality of the nymphs' drawings, it would seem that the Artist started drawing the Zodiac with those five pages, in that order or some minor variation thereof.
If the tubs were not just decoration, why don't they occur also on the later diagrams?
If they were just decoration, there is a plausible explanation. The Artist drew tubs at first because he did not know (or dared) to draw decent full-body naked nymphs. When he got to Taurus 2 he finally learned that "art", although his nymphs were still rather ungainly. Then he stopped drawing the tubs as they would have been an unnecessary waste of time.
(Actually I have You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for why he used tubs for that purpose, but it does not make much difference.)
The second problem is that the patterns are rather simple. Mostly, the whole tub is covered in a single pattern of stripes, dots, circles etc. They have none of the complex designs that we see in real coats-of-arms. No halving or quartering, no rampant lions, towers etc. And the tubs in Taurus 1 and 2 are all plain, undecorated (except one that is clearly BEEEPed). That simplicity does not seem consistent with the claim that those designs are references to persons or families through their coats-of-arms.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Double lobster
R. Sale > 23-04-2026, 09:04 PM
Basic heraldic patterns include a number of examples composed of alternating stripes, in varying numbers, in the four directions [vertical, horizontal, and diagonal x 2]. Starting at the top of VMs Pisces is a pair of tubs with alternating vertical stripes. To either side are tubs with spotted patters, and clockwise there is another. But the one before 3:00 is a pattern of alternating diagonal stripes, oriented as a bend sinister. At 3:00 the alternating stripes of a chevron pattern. Then one after that has horizontal stripes.
The following tub pattern is overlaid with a bunch of circular, ring-like elements. In heraldry, rings are annulets and a semy of annulets is a valid possibility - granted it is poorly draw. As is the next tub whose pattern is indecipherable. But it is followed, just before 6:00 by a tub with a nice design of circles - a good semy of roundels.
At 9:00 more vertical stripes, then horizontal stripes, then a pattern of scales - the obscure fur called papelonny.
VMs Dark Aries has a couple blank tubs, a few repeats, and an interesting pattern of concentric circles in the outer ring at 9:00. It's a variation of the whirlpool pattern known as 'gorges'. And that's another story.
So, two pages leading up to VMs White Aries, with numerous examples of potential heraldic interpretation - like chevrons.
Why did the artist stop drawing tubs? Because the job was finished. Why drag out further irrelevant examples, when the disguise had already been played? The job was to connect the pairing of the initial Zodiac medallions and the heraldry of the tubs to 'subtly include', via heraldic interpretation, the historical grounding of the Genoese popes
The represented patterns tend to be plain, but not all that simple. Annulety is not simple. Gouges is not simple. Papelonny is not simple. At the same time the dualistic structure of White Aries shows clear, intentional disguise. Lions and towers might attract more attention. It's not the armorial heraldry on its own. It's the combined evidence of the red galero that reveals the specific historical connections, but only to those capable of such recognition. And, ostensibly, that was then, when the knowledge for such recognition may have been more immediate for certain groups and persons; and this is now.