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Water, earth and air
- Water, earth and air
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RE: Water, earth and air
Jorge_Stolfi > 21-01-2026, 10:24 PM
(21-01-2026, 09:34 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the "overnight" transformation to the statement in your Post #29 is simply amazing.
It is amazing what a Wkipedia page can do, isn't it?
Quote:Can we all use the same terminology???
Hmm, not sure I want to go along with that. My point is precisely that,by the 1400s, the "nebuly line" of heraldry and the "wolkenband" of manuscript illuminations were two distinct things, even though they may have had a common origin in the distant past. Artists who drew wolkenbands did not think of heraldry, and people who specified nebuly lines in blazons did not think of wolkenbands or boundaries between Earth and Heaven.
By the way, is it known when the term "nebuly line" was first used? Not the line itself, but the name?
Quote:Considering the catalog of relevant 'Manuscript Miniature' images. Early examples of cosmic boundaries with noticeable nebuly tendencies are found in six sources between 1300-1340, but going on before 1300 requires an increasing allowance for pattern variation and fewer examples.
Artistry and heraldry are established a century before the VMs. Even if the basic patterns had come from different sources, they would have been conflated by now. Nebuly for clouds; wavy for water; rayonny for fire. [Pillow is not an option.] The VMs was just prior to the era of Ficino's conflation, planets = metals = gems = colors = virtues. The whole nine yards.
Not sure I follow here. You are speaking of heraldry only, right? Nothing to do with the wolkenbands of the artists?
Quote:Step 3: Presuming the VMs has medieval influences, if not real medieval origins, *apply* those medieval definitions to VMs illustrations. The result is an interesting trail of interpretation that connects the VMs critter to the historical Apocalypse de S Jean [BNF Fr. 13096]. Like the cosmic comparison, the uniqueness of the original sources, and the similarity of the VMs representations should incite a bit of curiosity. One might propose several connections with medieval heraldry that similarly demonstrate knowledge and intention by someone. However, part of that intention is to include ambiguity and even obfuscation. And additionally, the use of obscure, medieval information has confounded investigators prior to the "information age". Obscurity is coming back for another round.
This way of analyzing the VMS illustrations is self-validating hence unconvincing. "Consider every detail: if it resembles something from heraldry, it is heraldry; if not, it was added on purpose to obfuscate the heraldry. Even if 99% of the drawing has to be tagged 'obfuscation'." Can you see the problem?
With the same approach one can conclude that the VMS is all about alchemy. Or how to reach the Indies by sea. Or how to raise silkworms. Or Zoroastrism. Or how to pick up women in a tavern...
Again, the nebuly line of heraldry is such a simple design that people will often use it in drawings that have nothing to do with either heraldry or Heavens/Earth boundaries. Like on the NW corner of f79r, where it is almost certainly a clumsy attempt to depict water splashing.
All the best , -- stolfi -
RE: Water, earth and air
R. Sale > 22-01-2026, 12:48 AM
Yes, I can see the problem. The problem is dismissal. If it can be dismissed, it *must* be dismissed. There's no reason for investigation or consideration. This denies, after the fact, the possibility that any artist has used nebuly symbolism. Surely, the artist is not focused on heraldry, but the intended interpretation of the artistic technique is the same cloud-based concept, whether the nebuly line is plain or ornate.
But all is not lost. The test of one association is the validity of a subsequent association. When it works, it works.
The oldest 'word-pattern' association I know is Wolkenstein. A heraldic insignia divided by a single line is not that common. Alternating stripes are more usual. Wolkenstein works because of its canting interpretation. <So, unless it was the Duke of Nebuly, there wouldn't be a direct canting connection, though there are scattered examples of historical usages.>
None of the six examples (1300-1340) were heraldic. Perhaps you'll have a chance to take a look. This is 1300-1340 data:
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Here's a nice cloud-band, without any indication of religious personages or cosmological interpretations dated 1316. No cosmic boundaries, no heraldry, but the nebuly / gewolkt interpretation is still clearly implied.
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RE: Water, earth and air
Jorge_Stolfi > 22-01-2026, 01:57 AM
(22-01-2026, 12:48 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This denies, after the fact, the possibility that any artist has used nebuly symbolism. Surely, the artist is not focused on heraldry, but the intended interpretation of the artistic technique is the same cloud-based concept, whether the nebuly line is plain or ornate.
Ok, the "nebuly line" of heraldry is a reference to clouds.
But not every depiction of clouds, realistic or as the stereotypical wolkenband, is a reference to heraldry...
Quote:The oldest 'word-pattern' association I know is Wolkenstein
I agree that the Wolkenstein pun shows that by 1300 or the wavy line with swollen knobs was used in coats of arms, and that it was understood to be a reference to clouds. (Was it in general use, or was it "invented" by the Wolkensteins?)
But that still does not answer my question about the word "nebuly". More generally, when was the terminology of heraldry standardized? Was it already settled in 1400, or did people use ad-hoc descriptions for the coat of arms? Like "duh, a wavy line with swollen knobs, going from this side to that side, but tilted, not level"...
Quote:Here's a nice cloud-band, without any indication of religious personages or cosmological interpretations dated 1316. No cosmic boundaries, no heraldry, but the nebuly / gewolkt interpretation is still clearly implied.
Thanks. But, again, "nebuly" is strictly a heraldry term, like "gules" and "or". No? I think that using it for the wolkenbands of the artists is rather confusing...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Water, earth and air
R. Sale > 22-01-2026, 09:13 PM
With apologies, I do not understand the reason for your confusion. The basic line pattern is the same and so is cloud-based interpretation. It's the same nebuly line with two different uses: heraldry and artistry. Heraldry depends on meaning and interpretation. Best to keep it simple. Artistry, for some artists, depends on flamboyance, so that's what they did. And, of course, heraldry has no place in cloud band illustrations. Yet they share the same aesthetic symbolism.
Here's a fairly plain version of a nebuly line, with a bit of bifurcation, and it appears to be religious also 1316. It's probably connected to the previous St. Graal text.
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What can I say? This is how they did things. It depends on the artist's individual technique to make use of the nebuly symbolism.
In regard to the use of the word 'nebuly', that is rather problematic. Heraldic rolls, as you may know, generally consist of an image, plus some identifying surname / full name / title. They do not include blazons. The word would have to occur in a blazon of French or English (Portuguese? or Spanish?) origins. Early collections of written blazons, if and when they exist, are a totally different kettle of fish. -
RE: Water, earth and air
R. Sale > 22-01-2026, 11:41 PM
Heavens forfend; I asked AI. It didn't like 'nebuly'. But it said the variant 'nebulé' occurred in the Oxford English Dictionary referenced to John Lydgate's use c. 1450. So, there could have been significant usage before that. And I would be looking to French language examples, if there are any.
Another thing mentioned was the potential confusion between an insignia with multiple, nebuly bands and the heraldic fur pattern called vair as seen below.
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Examples become more ambiguous, if the traditional argent-and-azure tincture combination for vair is altered. Fortunately, in the "wolkenbands" and in the elemental representations there is no such confusion. The natural expectation is the cloudy interpretation, not squirrel fur. -
RE: Water, earth and air
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 26-01-2026, 05:21 PM
This is a rather non-religious and non-christian use of a cloudband/wolkenband:
(Tübinger Hausbuch
![[Image: e5669fa5c184881b507a16eda8ae8c27.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/1200x/e5/66/9f/e5669fa5c184881b507a16eda8ae8c27.jpg)
Just adding this here to show that this kind of 'rim' could be used in a more profane way;
we lost it a bit within nebuly, cloudbands and heraldy - I think this example is nothing of it all, but yet in a manuscript. -
RE: Water, earth and air
Jorge_Stolfi > 26-01-2026, 05:52 PM
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RE: Water, earth and air
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 26-01-2026, 06:55 PM
(26-01-2026, 05:52 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..] What is the purpose/meaning of the cloudband in that image?
This is the star constellation "Demon meridianus", the noonday demon.
Mentioned first in a pre-christian hebrew bible, this seems to stem from ancient greek stories about Diana/Artemis or Pan. Generally a mediterranian warning to avoid noon's heat.
There is also a Czech and other slawic figure called the "Noon woman", which may be sourced from (byzantine) greek origins -- this one is explicitly dangerous for people who work harvesting on the fields during mid-day, killing them by heatstroke.
This version here regards such harvesters, interesting how such detail found it's way to a southwest-german book of mid 15th ct.
The Hausbuch text also mentions a lot of stars and "galaxia".
About the cloudband, good old Michael Scot had this image:
![[Image: Demon_Meridianus.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Demon_Meridianus.jpg)
Cloudband and (here) starband seem to have the same function, representing a star band or galaxy.
This all has nothing to do with Voynich Ms,
but it is interesting how non-christian, ancient and eastern themes left their mark. -
RE: Water, earth and air
Jorge_Stolfi > 26-01-2026, 08:45 PM
(26-01-2026, 06:55 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is the star constellation "Demon meridianus", the noonday demon.
Thanks! So it is "Heavenly domain", but in the astronomical sense, not in the Christian sense.
Quote:The Hausbuch text also mentions a lot of stars and "galaxia". ... a star band or galaxy
But surely not "a" galaxy; rather "the" Milky Way. Which does look like a band of stars to us.
(Actually the understanding of the Milky Way as a collection of stars, while suggested by some Caliphate astronomers already in the 1100s, became accepted only after ~1600, when the individual starts could be seen with the telescope. And the notion that there were other galaxies became accepted only in the early 1900s.)
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Water, earth and air
R. Sale > 26-01-2026, 09:01 PM
Post #46 is an excellent example of a basic nebuly line used as a cloud band.
Post #47 asks: "Curious! What is the purpose/meaning of the cloud band in that image?"
Answer: It signifies clouds. I see indications in the illustrations that the women could have been suggestively portrayed as witches in flight. [Pending validation in the text.] Otherwise, they're just standing on the ground.
Post #48: You've sort of gone apples and oranges here. The image is a vesica piscis with stars. It has nothing to do with nebuly lines. It has nothing to do with cloud bands. Most definitely it can be used to represent a cosmic boundary. And it was used as such in the critter discussion in comparison with the Agnus Dei image in BNF Fr. 13096