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[split] Did the VM go straight from cerebellum to vellum?
- [split] Did the VM go straight from cerebellum to vellum?
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RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from cerebellum to vellum?
Jorge_Stolfi > 29-05-2026, 02:16 PM
(29-05-2026, 11:58 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the Voynich manuscript is written on scrap vellum/parchment, which has been suggested a few times, it's not clear if the author had any money to hire a scribe.
He presumably had no money to hire a professional scribe -- and apparently he didn't.
Just has he got third-grade vellum, possibly for free, he apparently recruited a third-rate scribe with near-zero drawing skills -- possibly for free, too. Like, the scribe could have been a good friend who was an accountant, who was willing to help the old man achieve his dream. Or his 13-year-old nephew who had learned to write with a quill, who agreed to do the job for a dime per page...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from cerebellum to vellum?
Rafal > 29-05-2026, 02:22 PM
Quote:So, the question remains. Are there surviving instances of Medieval manuscript books on vellum that are known to have been scribed by the author himself?
I have found it in 5 minutes, and it is actually quite late:
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Parchment · 490 pp. · 22.5 x 15 cm · Hochheim near Worms, Dominican Cloister of Maria Himmelskron · about 1474
Composite manuscript from the Dominican Cloister Maria Himmelskron in Hochheim near Worms, containing works by Johannes Meyer; according to a note of ownership in his own hand, it was written in 1474.
So probably there are a lot of them.
Or do you mean vellum is not the same as parchment but only the finest, most luxurious and expensive parchment? -
RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from cerebellum to vellum?
oshfdk > 29-05-2026, 03:06 PM
(29-05-2026, 02:16 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just has he got third-grade vellum, possibly for free, he apparently recruited a third-rate scribe with near-zero drawing skills -- possibly for free, too. Like, the scribe could have been a good friend who was an accountant, who was willing to help the old man achieve his dream. Or his 13-year-old nephew who had learned to write with a quill, who agreed to do the job for a dime per page...
I'm not an expert, but I think an amateur with a quill would leave tons of ink blobs and ink drop from using wrong angles and force on the quill. I tried writing with a quill, it's not very hard, but accidents happen now and then. I don't see these accidents in the Voynich MS. However bizarre and irregular the writing in the manuscript is, it appears to me made by someone who certainly was proficient with the quill. Someone proficient with the quill, but not a professional scribe, could just be the author. Or assuming several hands (equally technically proficient but non professional) a team of authors? Ignoring MRT and the Chinese "broken phone" theory, is there any particular reason to believe that the author couldn't just write the manuscript with no external help?
By the way, one of the reasons I'm a bit cautious about 5 different hands is that I would expect greater variability in the proficiency and in the sloppiness, while to me all of them appear to be roughly the same. Judging by my school experience, in any random group of 5 people there will be one with significantly more beautiful and regular handwriting. -
RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from cerebellum to vellum?
Jorge_Stolfi > 29-05-2026, 03:19 PM
(29-05-2026, 02:22 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Parchment · 490 pp. · 22.5 x 15 cm · Hochheim near Worms, Dominican Cloister of Maria Himmelskron · about 1474
Composite manuscript from the Dominican Cloister Maria Himmelskron in Hochheim near Worms, containing works by Johannes Meyer; according to a note of ownership in his own hand, it was written in 1474.
The catalogue entry says "parchment" but from the images it looks like paper. The way the edges are crumbing and the texture of uniform straight vertical ribs seem quite typical of paper and very incompatible with hide.
Also the way the manuscript is written and rubricated seems very like the output of a monastic "manuscript factory". Although, since Johannes was a monk turned priest, he presumably could indeed have written it that way himself.
But, anyway, that is clearly a "clean copy" from some draft. It definitely was not written straight "from brain to paper".
That catalogue phrase "in his own hand" probably refers to the note on page V1:
That note does not seem to be in the same handwriting as the book:
Although the note is in semi-cursive while the book is in "printed" style, so they are not directly comparable.
My German is epsilonic so I cannot read the whole of Johannes's note on V1. Does it indeed say that the physical book was scribed by himself (as opposed to "authored")? -
RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from cerebellum to vellum?
ReneZ > 29-05-2026, 03:51 PM
(29-05-2026, 01:22 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How do we collect a representative sample of manuscripts written on poor quality parchment?
I think that the problem is more generic even.
Just how poor-quality is the parchment of the Voynich MS?
Sure, it cannot compare with the top-of-the-range books of hours, but is it unusually low-quality or even exceptionally low-quality? I am not aware that it is either, but I also don't know.
It may just be run-of-the-mill stuff. Nothing exceptionally bad.
I like to compare this with modern cars.
All cars are cheap when compared to a buyer-customised Bugatti, but not all of these cheaper cars are cheap in a more absolute sense. Is the parchment of the Voynich MS comparable to a second-hand 2CV running on leaded fuel? -
RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from cerebellum to vellum?
Jorge_Stolfi > 29-05-2026, 07:08 PM
(29-05-2026, 03:06 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However bizarre and irregular the writing in the manuscript is, it appears to me made by someone who certainly was proficient with the quill.
Yes, sorry, that is what I meant by "not professional". Someone who did a substantial amount of writing (with a quill -- what else?) on paper, maybe a bit on vellum, and thus had developed good quill-driving skills and a neat handwriting; but who had no experience writing books of commercial quality. I thought someone like a starving student, a trader, an accountant, a notary public or lawyer in a small town, ....
[/quote]Someone proficient with the quill, but not a professional scribe, could just be the author.... is there any particular reason to believe that the author couldn't just write the manuscript with no external help?[/quote]
There are many possible reasons why the Author could have resorted to a scribe. Like Marci by the time he sent the book to Kircher, his eyesight may have been so poor that he was no longer able to write himself. His hands may have have not been steady enough. Or he just may have had terrible handwriting.
There are several clues supporting the claim that the Scribe could not read the script. Like the mis-aligned lines of f34r. Or the large number of "weirdo" glyphs that occur only once.
[/quote]By the way, one of the reasons I'm a bit cautious about 5 different hands is that I would expect greater variability in the proficiency and in the sloppiness, while to me all of them appear to be roughly the same.[/quote]
Yes, I am not convinced about the five scribes either, for the same reason.
Quote: Judging by my school experience, in any random group of 5 people there will be one with significantly more beautiful and regular handwriting.
Same here as a teacher. Only that I would use the words "less ugly and irregular" instead...
All the best, --stolfi