ioannestritemius > 08-01-2026, 07:23 AM
Legit > 08-01-2026, 08:40 AM
(07-01-2026, 09:25 PM)ioannestritemius Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(06-01-2026, 12:05 AM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you, I think ... If I understand the logic of the comment "Isn't the manuscript itself the cornerstone that supports its authenticity" correctly, it is the same thing as stating that a fake-Rembrandt, for example, is the cornerstone that supports its authenticity??(05-01-2026, 11:50 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Isn't the manuscript itself the cornerstone that supports its authenticity?
Isn't that a paradox ?
To return to Voynich's forged letters in several PUG-volumes, allow me to deconstruct Baresch 16390427. Incidentally, I do not understand why, in a predominantly English speaking forum, the Kircher-correspondence keeps being referred to by the Italian word "carteggio". To over-inflate its importance? In plain English, a "carteggio" is a "correspondence".
Re 16390427, PUG 557, f. 353rv, Jiří Bareš (Georg Baresch) to Kircher. I suggest that the interested reader consult neither the English translation, nor the English summary, and especially not the Latin transcript, but the original text which is available at [You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]. The same scrupulousness bestowed on the VM itself should also be applied to its supporting documents, i. e. its "certificates of authenticity", meaning the two letters Baresch 16390427 and Marci 16650819.
I have transcribed all of PUG 557, f. 353rv but for the sake of expediency will limit myself to the most obvious proof of forgery, the diacritics over the "u", "ú", and "ù" (yes, there is more than that). Background: in humanist Latin, scribes occasionally used "ü", not as a modern trema, but to visually distinguish lines of neighboring letter-shapes, e. g. "adinüentionis" (Trithemius, letter to Germain de Ganay, 1515, not autograph). The "sharp" accent" (accent aigu) "ú" was used predominantly in print to indicate the ablative case; the "grave" accent (accent grave) "ù" to indicate an adverb, e. g. "lectúque", "minùs" (Historia rei litterariæ Ordinis S. Benedicti, 1754). In Latin, "ú" was not used to distinguish the sounds /u/ and /v/ or to mark diphthongs. The custom to put a little "flourish" above the "u" to distinguish it from "n" was limited to German handwriting. And Latin diacritics did not have the same meaning as those, for instance, in modern French: in "à côté" the grave is semantic (distinction from the verb "a"), the circonflexe is etymological (vestige of Latin and old French "s", "costa", "coste"), while the accent aigu is phonetic in that it indicates the sound of the long vowel [e:]. – To return to Latin: whichever convention a Latin writer or printer followed, he applied or not applied diacritics to the written letter "u" with 97.8543 percent %regularity.
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ReneZ > 08-01-2026, 09:49 AM
(01-01-2026, 05:44 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the comments below my blog post of September, 2015, "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.", Thomas Ernst has posted a series of comments carefully explaining why the Latin of that letter (the one Voynich claimed to have found in the Voynich, of course) is problematic in ways that would never appear in a genuine letter of the (supposed) time, by the (supposed) authors.
(08-01-2026, 07:23 AM)ioannestritemius Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let me save everyone some time. Each and every last letter contained in PUG 555-568 pertaining to Kircher's supposed Prague correspondents, plus Beinecke 408A, is a modern forgery. Voynich did not just forge the world's favorite mystery book, but also the beloved "carteggio". I prefer plain English: correspondence. And plain truth: forgery. The only interesting question from here on is the following: what else did he forge? If the man forged "Medieval Alice in Wonderland" and a complete 14-volume set of 17th Century correspondence (I can only assume that the remaining letters in those volumes are forgeries too), he fabricated more.
[...]
And thank you for our brief time together. – Thomas Ernst.
Jorge_Stolfi > 08-01-2026, 10:59 AM
(07-01-2026, 09:25 PM)ioannestritemius Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Incidentally, I do not understand why, in a predominantly English speaking forum, the Kircher-correspondence keeps being referred to by the Italian word "carteggio". To over-inflate its importance? In plain English, a "carteggio" is a "correspondence".
Legit > 08-01-2026, 12:48 PM
(07-01-2026, 08:26 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But there is a bigger picture here you do not know about, because it is a long "work in progress", and I only hint at it. So you may think I "need" to do this or that, to convince you... really, though, are you interested in being convinced? And do I want to convince you? I can answer for myself, "no". I only discuss these things for the interest of those truly interested in these things I find interesting, and again, to save them the trouble of believing and disbelieving things that simply are not true.
(07-01-2026, 08:26 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, back to the Lost Chart of Magellan... there is a great deal to this story, and much I still have to learn about it. When I do decide to write about this, at length, I hope you, too, will find it interesting. But for now, what I know for now, it relates more to the way Voynich 1) explained things, 2) fished for expert opinions, 3) either related or created provenance, 4) how questionable items have and are accepted by the scholarly community... all I can think of, at the moment.
(07-01-2026, 08:26 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:The speculation on top of speculation makes it hard to accept it to be anything other than a fictional story. While we're speculating we should definitely implicate Voynichs wife Ethel who continued to try to sell the VM after his death, and their secretary Anne Nill who succeeded in selling it. Perhaps the encoded text is Polish or Russian since Ethel spoke and translated both of these languages.
You see you can do that, if you want, but you know I don't... so what is the point to those other speculations? Of course, for a false impression that my ideas are foundationless. Rather, you should stick to what I really believe, if you want to argue my actual hypothesis, and not strawmen.
Quote:Ethels claim that Voynich confessed it's true origin to be the Jesuits at Frascati could be used to speculate that she was complicit in the conspiracy to forge and sell the VM. The claim for the Jesuit origin comes not from Ethel herself but from a letter (presumably written by Ethel) to Anne Nill. Why would Ethel reveal this only in a letter to Anne? Perhaps Anne Nill forged that letter from Ethel. After all, she was the one who was successful in selling the VM. Perhaps there was a love triangle. The possibilities are endless.
Again, you are creating an implausible set of conditions I in no way believe in, or have ever stated. Why? If my actual hypothesis is weak, you should stick to that, and not grow your own low hanging fruit to pick.
nablator > 08-01-2026, 01:38 PM
(08-01-2026, 07:23 AM)ioannestritemius Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let me save everyone some time. Each and every last letter contained in PUG 555-568 pertaining to Kircher's supposed Prague correspondents, plus Beinecke 408A, is a modern forgery.
Quote:Set quoniam ab eo tempore iam tertius mensis labitur, neque tamen responsus â te video, quem aliàs in vices alienis literis rependendas cognovi satis pronum [...] morbus aliquis â scriptione te prohibeat.
Mauro > 08-01-2026, 05:38 PM
(08-01-2026, 02:42 AM)ioannestritemius Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Barschius-letter was forged by Wilfrid Voynich, with the intent to validate/authenticate the VM, and Voynich forged many other letters in some of the PUG-volumes, too. The most obvious proof are the diacritics as explained by me. Not to mention the weird, ungrammatical Latin. No writer or printer of Latin would have used the diacritics exemplified by me, or even written such a text.
proto57 > Yesterday, 05:06 AM
(07-01-2026, 08:46 PM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-01-2026, 07:30 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But lastly I point out that you have not explained to us how you think Marci's bad Latin diacritical marks made it from Marci, to that letter, by the scribe? Why would a scribe transcribe a letter for Marci with all those errors, including written ones?
And why would Voynich the master forger use bad Latin diacritical marks in his fake? The bad Latin is unexpected both if the letter is original and if it was faked by Voynich. It's unexplained in both cases.
At the very best for the Modern Forgery Theory (a fortiori) I can concede it's slightly more probable on the fake hypothesis, maybe with 1.2 to 1 odds: a very weak evidence. But for me the odds are 1 to 1, and the bad Latin is no evidence for, nor against, MFT (nor for, or against, the 'ancient Voynich' theory).
proto57 > Yesterday, 05:51 AM
(08-01-2026, 12:48 PM)Legit Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The foundation of the line of reasoning of yours that I quoted is that the “Magellan Map” is a forgery. If it's not a forgery, then the entire line of reasoning collapses and is therefore foundationless. But if the Magellan Map is a forgery then perhaps it opens up the 'implausible set of conditions' that your theory may imply.
Quote:These are interesting questions your theory raises. How could Wilfrid be a criminal mastermind of forgery and Ethel his wife not know?
Quote:If Ethel kept the secret of the Jesuits, why not reveal it soon after Wilfrids death?
Quote:On his death, Wilfrids will gave a large portion of his estate to Anne, so large that she declined it because it would financially harm Ethel. Would Wilfrid do this for Anne if she was only an employee and they were not having an affair? I'm not presenting these as implausible, but if your suppositions are correct - highly plausible using the same standards of evidence (that you've chosen to share).
Quote:By not revealing what she knew about Wilfrids "Bacon" deception soon after his death makes her a knowing participant as she continued to try to sell the VM under those pretenses. This is an undeniable stain on her character. If this implicates Wilfrid in fraud, why not Ethel?
Quote:Whether you intend or not, your theory paints a picture of Wilfrid as an agent of a "forgery factory" smuggling letters into archives all over and hoping nobody would notice anything new. How likely is it that nobody knew the contents of the correspondence well enough that they wouldn't notice when a new letter had been added?
Mauro > Yesterday, 10:09 AM
(Yesterday, 05:06 AM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-01-2026, 08:46 PM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-01-2026, 07:30 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But lastly I point out that you have not explained to us how you think Marci's bad Latin diacritical marks made it from Marci, to that letter, by the scribe? Why would a scribe transcribe a letter for Marci with all those errors, including written ones?
And why would Voynich the master forger use bad Latin diacritical marks in his fake? The bad Latin is unexpected both if the letter is original and if it was faked by Voynich. It's unexplained in both cases.
At the very best for the Modern Forgery Theory (a fortiori) I can concede it's slightly more probable on the fake hypothesis, maybe with 1.2 to 1 odds: a very weak evidence. But for me the odds are 1 to 1, and the bad Latin is no evidence for, nor against, MFT (nor for, or against, the 'ancient Voynich' theory).
Well thank you for giving it some consideration and open thought, Mauro. But let me clarify for you the reasoning I was using in asking about the incorrect diacritical marks (and other features like it)...
Yes, as you say, bad Latin alone might be explained both by Marci's bad Latin, and, alternatively by Voynich's (or other forger of the letter's) bad Latin.
But the history of excusing the bad Latin and script of the letter was to invent a "scribe" to explain it. No, no scribe known, nor identified... just imagined, speculated on, whatever, to also explain why that letter was different than Marci's other letters, other than it being a fake.
OK, I never accepted that for several reasons, not the least of which was that the writing is somewhat similar to Marci's, but not quite. So why would a scribe copy his handwriting at all? And then, Marci's signature is assumed to be his... and better written. Not only that, but an almost perfect tracing! Well if he could write that well, why did he need a scribe? We were told Marci was old, and must have been feeble... so, the "scribe".
BUT NOW, with Thomas Ernst's excellent and detailed analysis as to in just what ways the Latin is wrong, the "scribe" excuse becomes very implausible. This, because that bad Latin of Marci's would have to "pass through" the scribe, and be transcribed by him/her onto the paper. How, exactly, would this "scribe" dutifully and religiously copy features of Marci's bad Latin, such as the diacritical marks, invented words, and so on, to the letter? How would he even KNOW the wrong diacritical marks were being used? Was it supposedly a letter of Marci's this "scribe" was copying? Why would he copy errors? If it was the habit of one's superior to not dot "i's" or cross "t's", and so on, would any receptionist/steno/scribe transcribe a letter without them? Why?
I hope that better explains the problem here. It is not the Latin quality, as much as the logistics of the proposed, speculative scenario of the inserted "scribe", and how that just does not make any logical, practical, or common sense.