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• RE: f17r

  nickpelling > 08-05-2021, 04:51 PM

  (08-05-2021, 02:39 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[...] if you take the C14 dating into acount, it should be around 1420, the marginalia with the big  loops are late 15th c., let us say around 1480, the quire markings should be about the same time, the foliation is later, I think  17th c.

  
  The problem is that the f17r marginalia has both the big loops and Voynichese at the end of the line (which I first saw on my trip to the Beinecke in 2006 using a black lamp).
  
  This seems to imply that the two were written at around the same time.

• RE: f17r

  Helmut Winkler > 08-05-2021, 06:15 PM

  (08-05-2021, 04:51 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (08-05-2021, 02:39 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[...] if you take the C14 dating into acount, it should be around 1420, the marginalia with the big  loops are late 15th c., let us say around 1480, the quire markings should be about the same time, the foliation is later, I think  17th c.

  
  The problem is that the f17r marginalia has both the big loops and Voynichese at the end of the line (which I first saw on my trip to the Beinecke in 2006 using a black lamp).
  
  This seems to imply that the two were written at around the same time.

  
  You find the same problem in the last line of 116v, i.e. Voynichese and 'normal' script together, I would  say that the person that wrote ther marginalia at the end of the century could read (and write) Voynichese, whatever that implies.  It is one of the reasons that I think it means that the ms. is not a ciphre, but a plaintext and readable and understandable

• RE: f17r

  Anton > 08-05-2021, 07:23 PM

  (08-05-2021, 06:15 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is one of the reasons that I think it means that the ms. is not a ciphre, but a plaintext and readable and understandable

  
  This returns us to the question why the two would be mixed in a single line then.

• RE: f17r

  Helmut Winkler > 08-05-2021, 07:59 PM

  (08-05-2021, 07:23 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (08-05-2021, 06:15 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is one of the reasons that I think it means that the ms. is not a ciphre, but a plaintext and readable and understandable

  
  This returns us to the question why the two would be mixed in a single line then.

  
  Why not? I use different languages in the same line in my notes as well. I think it is one of the worst faults in Voynich research to suspect some deep secret whenever someone does not understand something, in most cases it is just lack of knowledge of the  subject in questuon (there are lots of examples in nearly every thread)

• RE: f17r

  Battler > 09-05-2021, 12:26 AM

  That "malher aller" line... those two words to me look like "meillior allor", which sounds Romance, could be older French, with the Modern French being "meilleur alors" and Italian being "meglio allora" or "meglio allor'". It means "better then". Or maybe a dialect of Occitan? It would certainly line up with other Occitan words in the manuscript, such as that "solhelh" for "sun" and those Month names.

• RE: f17r

  Aga Tentakulus > 09-05-2021, 08:59 PM

  (08-05-2021, 04:51 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The problem is that the f17r marginalia has both the big loops and Voynichese at the end of the line (which I first saw on my trip to the Beinecke in 2006 using a black lamp).
  
  This seems to imply that the two were written at around the same time.

  
  When I look at page 66r on this question, and it's really good to see here.
  Same ink and same pen. The German text, the drawing and the VM text have the same look.
  Even if some time had passed in between, the colour of the ink would probably also be a little darker due to the evaporation of the ink.
  I see no reason to believe that it should be different on page 17.
  I think in the same turn, or shortly after. As an afterthought, so to speak.
  
  Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

• RE: f17r

  Ranceps > 10-08-2021, 08:49 AM

  Right next to the marginalia, there also seems to be “erased” or accidentally printed (maybe due to the fresh ink) blue “petals” of the flower. I tried to look for a familiar flower inside the MS, but to no avail.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: f17r

  Searcher > 01-08-2025, 12:58 PM

  In unread posts I found a discussion about the abbreviation “c3” with a macron above it in the word "luc3" in marginalia on f17r. This again made me dig around in the vastness of the Internet and rethink different versions anew. Earlier I already suggested the version: "Malher" or "Mallier", as a distorted "Maler" (painter). My difficulty is that I don’t know German and it is difficult for me to translate German texts, but I still dug up something, as it seems to me.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (“Mahler Re-composed”) is about surnames that come from the German word and surname "Mahler". Among the many variants, there is also "Malher". The reason for many variations, particularly in Bohemia and Moravia, was its misspelling by people who were not native speakers of the German language, but used it as a result of the Germanization of the countries of the Roman Empire.
  Whether the word is "Malher" or "Mallier", it could indeed have had the original meaning of "Mahler", "Maler". Another question is whether it means "painter”, “artist".
  In the D. Johann Georg Krünitz ökonomisch-technologische Encyklopädie, oder allgemeines System der Staats-Stadt-Haus- und Landwirthschaft… You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  as far as I understand, the translations for the word “Mahler” are exactly the same as those in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for “Mal” (plural “Mäler”).
  In this dictionary: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  in addition to the translation of "marks", "stains", "signs" (plural), it has for it such meanings as "images", "pictures", "figures of a thing" (plural). A similar interpretation is here:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  As a result, I can suggest the following translation versions for the first word:
  1) painter / artist;
  2) images;
  3) stains, signs
  With the word "aller":
  1) Artist of all...
  2) Images of all...
  3) Signs of all...
  Then the word "luc3" follows. Previously, I considered it in the context of the Latin language (lucet, lucent). In the current context, I think it would be a completely inappropriate word. The search for German words that could correspond to the abbreviation "luc3" led me to the word You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., or more precisely, to "Luchs" or "Luches" (genitive case, singular), which means "of boggy lowland", "of swamp", "of moorland". In that case, we get:
  1) Artist of all boggyland...
  2) Images of all boggyland...
  3) Signs of all boggyland...
  As much as I understand there is a conflict in the word combination “aller Luches” as “Luches” is in neuter gender, genitive, singular, but “aller” - or singular feminine genitive, either plural strong genitive. So, the next word, I suppose, must be a noun for which “Luches” plays a role of an adjunct.
  The word "luc3" is followed by the barely noticeable word "her". The German word "her" doesn’t give us anything promising. At best, if it stands for the word "hier" (here), we get the translation "Images / signs of a whole moorland here... Of course, it may be so, but I believe that instead of "her" it should be "her[bae]" or "her[barum]", which, accordingly, should be an analogue of "luchs pflanzen" or "luchs kraut", implying "sumpfpflanze" (bog plant). In this case, I suppose, it is possible that the scribe used a Latin word.
  Total:
  1) Artist of all bog plants;
  2) Images of all bog plants;
  3) Signs of all bog plants.
  In this case, it seems to me that all the rules of construction are observed with the correspondence of cases, genders and numbers. Perhaps the distorted word "Mahler" and the borrowing of the Latin "herba" may indicate that the marginalia were written in German, but by a person who is not a native speaker.
  So, in conclusion, I need to say that objectively I have to consider both versions:
  

  1. Artist / images / signs of a whole bog here.
     
  2. Artist / images / signs of all bog plants.
     

  The reasons are: the abbreviation “c3” is still not clear, and its meaning isn’t proven; the use of the Latin word “herbarum” as shortened “her” is not strongly proven; the rest of the text is too obscure to understand the whole sentence and accuration of its translation.

• RE: f17r

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 01-08-2025, 01:21 PM

  (01-08-2025, 12:58 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]My difficulty is that I don’t know German and it is difficult for me to translate German texts, but I still dug up something, as it seems to me.
  
  The word "luc3" is followed by the barely noticeable word "her"[..]
  The reasons are: the abbreviation “c3” is still not clear, and its meaning isn’t proven; the use of the Latin word “herbarum” as shortened “her” is not strongly proven; the rest of the text is too obscure to understand the whole sentence and accuration of its translation.

  
  There is nothing German at all in this script, though some people like to have it such. I am German myself, and I would not recognize any of it in VMS.
  
  First word could as well be a "malhor" or a mis-spelled "malheur" from french (I would not bet the spelling of it was quite different 600 years ago).
  
  "luc3" with a dash above it: "3" ist the writing of "z" in earlier times (in German also), so I see this more as "c'z" which reminds more of Czech or other westslavic languages.
  
  "Her" is, funnily, the only thing rather close to German, as modern "Herr"(Sir) was written as "Her" often in medieval times. But those 3 letters can relate to anything, not necessarily to german language.
  
  So this line on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is more of a cold trace, regarding German.

• RE: f17r

  Koen G > 01-08-2025, 01:52 PM

  In a German context, the "3" is simply the letter "z". I've been looking at this a lot since it came up on the forum, and the situation in Medieval German is this:
  
  

  • "cz" stands for a "tz" sound. For example, you may read something like "czehen", which is exactly the same as "Zehn" in modern German.
    
  • the macron in cz is hard to find, this remains an unanswered question
    
  • The first letter of the word may not be "L", but rather k. Maybe b? It's hard to see because of the state of the vellum. 
    

  
  Ignoring the macron, we would then read something like lutz, kutz or butz. A lot depends on how we treat the macron though:
  

  • we could pretend it's not there, in which case we'd need to read "?utz"
    
  • we could read it as a standard "omission of n" macron -> but where does the "n" go then? 
    
  • we could read it as a more general abbreviation line, which presumes the reader's familiarity with the commonly abbreviated word
    

  
  Maybe the second option is most likely. But we could get a lot of words from this, depending on where we want the omitted "n" to go:
  
  luntz, kuntz, buntz, lut-n-z, kut-n-z, but-n-z, kutzen, butzen, lutzen...
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