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RE: f17r
Anton > 25-08-2017, 01:36 PM
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RE: f17r
Helmut Winkler > 25-08-2017, 05:07 PM
... I don't remember if you ever wrote what you think of the other words in that line?
Marco,
I think the first two words are „mallier aller“ (note the two different a‘s, while there is certainly only one hand), then „lvcz her“ and I think „pullmunia“, derived from pulmo, -onis, that is pulmoneus, -a, -um, Herba pulmonaria(?), cp. (radicula) pulmonaria, English lungwort, German Lungenkraut. Then comes a ‚V. Word‘, could it be the same term in several languages?
There are similarities with the hand on 116v for sure, especially the p and the m.
Another point that I find very interesting is that part of it seems to be French and we have another language after German, with a great likelihood of Latin (which would include Italian Volgare) -
RE: f17r
Searcher > 25-08-2017, 07:14 PM
Judging by the shape of the two "L"s at the beginning of the notes, I also prefer to think now that mallier is not an undivided word, since the rest doubled "LL"s are connected in the same special way. Therefore I get such an interpretationn:
Mal lier aller lucem her (probably, some verb in imperative) omnia ...........
Supposing that the first part of the sentence in German wholy, perhaps, it can be:
Mal lier aller lucht* her (probably, some verb in imperative) omnia ...........
* - lucht or luchte sometimes was used instead of licht (as much as I've understood from German texts)
In general, the first and the latter variant have the same or similar meaning. I need help of German speaking
As Anton mentioned, the verb lieren may mean lehren, lernen. But there is another meaning: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - to let go, to free, to lose, to leave, to waste, etc.
The link also contains the word Lier, but I can't understand for sure, what it may mean (difficulty with translation). Of course, the first variant could be more logical, but I will make both, just in case, as I don't know, which is more correct.
a)
1. Learn the sign, the whole light here (+verb imperative), all ..............
2. Portray, learn the whole light here (+verb imperative) all ...........
b)
1. Leave the sign, the whole light here (+verb imperative) all ...........
2. Portray, let go the whole light here (+verb imperative) all ...........
I'm quite not sure in the word "vnll" or "pnll", or "viill" and so on, therefore I leave it as is.
If you are interested in my interpretation of the Voynichese part, it can be read as "luminare notas", so I would read the whole sentence as: Learn the sign, the whole light here "vnll" all to light up/illuminate the notes. or[b] [/b]Portray, let go the whole light here, "unll" all to light up/illuminate the notes.
I still can't give a strict solution with my method, but sometimes I even don't know, what to do with such coincidences... -
RE: f17r
Anton > 25-08-2017, 08:23 PM
Quote:The link also contains the word Lier, but I can't understand for sure, what it may mean (difficulty with translation).
I guess it is part of some composite words related to Salzwerken. -
RE: The most elusive writing in the MS
Thomas_S > 26-08-2017, 10:11 PM
(24-08-2017, 05:26 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's amazing how much more readable it is. Glyphs that I couldn't see at all in the regular scans are fairly clear. I've always suspected it was the same hand as the last page, now I'm pretty certain it is.
Could you please say how you managed to obtain such a clear contrast? I have been trying to obtain it from the lossless jpg but have not managed it so clearly, was it your source?
In any case, the gallow character seems to have an extra loop compared to the usual type, and it is markedly unattached to the character(s) underneath it, something which occurs quite frequently in the VM, in particular in the main text of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. itself :
This would lend credence to idea that the gallows are really two distinct objects, one on top of the other (perhaps some form of abbreviation then, or a type of pronunciation mark as on ü). -
RE: The most elusive writing in the MS
-JKP- > 27-08-2017, 04:34 AM
The scan is courtesy of Nick Pelling and Rene Zandberger and was apparently located on the Web.
It's difficult to do image processing on something so faded and small and especially to bump up the contrast without imposing one's own interpretation on the glyphs, but this is what I see.
I cannot tell whether the last character on the first vord is r or s or something else.
What follows the gallows is very messy, there's an extra light loop and then three messy e or i shapes. Three c shapes is not uncommon, four sometimes happen in a row, but rarely.
I can't tell if the first character on the second vord is a or d but have interpreted it as a, keeping in mind that it might be d with a faded upper loop in the original scan.
I'm fairly sure that the second character is t and that the missing spot on the left leg is a pen skip, but the way the upper-left loop is drawn is a bit unusual, almost as though it were added as a separate stroke rather than continuing to the crossbar.
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RE: f17r
Paris > 28-08-2017, 01:24 PM
Let's use french idiom.
The first word coud be malher[be]
Malherbe, literally Mal herbe = mauvaise herbe.
We can translate by weed.
By weed, you must understand an undesirable plant (for instance, limonium).
The second word could be aller.
It's 100% a french word.
It means "to go"
The third world looks like an abbreviation, a latin abbreviation as it has been written already (like lumen).
I suggest another alternative with the word lunam.
Lunam is the accusative form of luna, lunae = the moon.
I refer to a lexicon of abbreviation from Adriano Cappelli (1912), online page 206, second column, last row :
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The fourth word is illegible for me.
The fifth word could be Guillaume.
Guillaume is a first name = William.
The two last words of this sentence are certainly voynichese.
I know, it doesn't make sense, but they are results of my researchs. -
RE: f17r
-JKP- > 28-08-2017, 02:51 PM
(28-08-2017, 01:24 PM)Paris Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let's use french idiom.
The first word coud be malher[be]
Malherbe, literally Mal herbe = mauvaise herbe.
We can translate by weed.
By weed, you must understand an undesirable plant (for instance, limonium).
...
This is the same handwriting as the last page. The scribe does not write "h" like that but does write ells like that (the angle of the loop is quite variable, but there's still a certain way it's written). Check the "l" and "h" on the last page. I'm 99% sure "mallier" is double-ell, not ell-h. Now, maybe it could be read as ell-h soundwise, but not if one trusts that the characters are correct (which they might not be, there are strangenesses in the spelling on the last page as well). -
RE: f17r
Anton > 28-08-2017, 03:58 PM
Quote:I'm 99% sure "mallier" is double-ell, not ell-h.
I agree with JKP, "h" is written otherwise.
If French, then I remember reading in some dictionary that "mallier" used to mean "postal horse" in French
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RE: f17r
Paris > 17-10-2017, 03:05 PM
If french, the two first words could be :
"mallier aller"
"aller" means in english to go to.
Logically, we can expect to find the destination after to go to.
The third word is "luz" or "lucz". Let's imagine it's "lug".
The bar over the "g" indicates an abbreviation.
In France, there are small villages with name beginning with "Lug" but we can be sure that Post office didn't exist in these villages in the sixteenth century.
So, only big cities are concerned by Post office.
But in France, we don't have a single city with a name beginning with "Lug".
So, I tried a different point of view.
What if we choose the latin name instead of french name ?
The two main cities in France during the sixteent century (and now also) were Paris and Lyon.
The latin name for Paris is Lutetia. I reject this possibility because it begins with "Lut" and not "Lug".
The latin name for Lyon is Lugdunum. I prefer this possibility.
I insert above two images of a silver and gold coin.
They are antique coins (probably fifth or sixth century).
They have been made in Lugdunum (Lyon), that's why we can see the abbreviation of this city (Lug)
It's just a possibility ; I form a hypothesis.