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• RE: The most elusive writing in the MS

  -JKP- > 24-08-2017, 07:42 PM

  I've noticed from the beginning that no one likes my reading of mallier aller lucorum her, but all of it is in northern dialect except luc'z (which is Latin for luc[orum] which means green).
  
  
  male, malle, mallier is "to paint" in Norse and some of the northern German and Norman regions
  aller is "all" in Norse
  her is "here" in Norse
  
  (I'm using Norse as shorthand to refer to the old medieval Scandinavian languages, all of which share common vocabulary.)
  
  It's readable even today, the words haven't changed. The spelling has barely changed. The "r" at the end of "aller" isn't unusual, some people pronounce it that way, the only significant oddity is the "i" in mallier and even that isn't odd in the context of Normandy/northern France where some of the French forms were sprinkled in by "Nor'men" (north men—Scandinavians), the settlers who migrated south and west along the coast to northern France and what is now the Netherlands.
  
  
  I'm not insisting this is what it is, because there aren't enough words to be sure, but if it is related to old Norman/Norse, it's completely readable.

• RE: f17r

  Anton > 24-08-2017, 09:31 PM

  I moved the subject posts into the subject thread.
  
  

  Quote:I wrote You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it could be pullamina (foal / chicks).

  
  I see "vull" rather than "pull". You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. suggests that "vull" = "voll" in some German regions (like e.g. "voll" in "Vollmond"). But the Latin-looking second part of the word would be strange in this context.
  
  

  Quote:I've noticed from the beginning that no one likes my reading of mallier aller lucorum her, but all of it is in northern dialect except luc'z (which is Latin for luc[orum] which means green).
  
  
  male, malle, mallier is "to paint" in Norse and some of the northern German and Norman regions
  aller is "all" in Norse
  her is "here" in Norse

  
  For me, there are two problems with this reading. First, that not all is painted green here. Second, that the context of the following words and vords is left unexplained. This is a single line, so "vullanima oteeeor dim" should also attract some attention.
  
  "Aller" and "her" are also valid German words, as well as "mal" and "lier" (the latter e.g. as word form of "lieren" = "lehren").

• RE: f17r

  Anton > 24-08-2017, 09:55 PM

  I think the problem with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia may be simply in that they are in some Germanic dialect which is not very well documented, at least in the sources we use. E.g. suppose the last plaintext letter in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is "c", not "a". It's really difficult to distinguish. If "c", then the second part of the word can be read as suspiciously "German-looking" "munic", and the whole word - as "vullmunic".
  
  "Munic" is something in between "Moench" and "Munich" , but (for the only path that I explored) checking "mun" in Lexer leads to "muegen", and the latter seems (the article is difficult for me to follow) to relate to "Moeglichkeit", so with "vull" as "voll", "vullmunic" may stand for something like "omnipotent" or "allmighty". Just speculation, of course, but it shows possible diverse ways that dialects of the 15th century can take.

• RE: f17r

  Koen G > 24-08-2017, 09:59 PM

  I actually like your proposal JKP. Is the Voynichese word in the text on this page? Then its inclusion in the marginalia could be an indication of posotion. Like: paint everything green next to/ above/ below/ in between these vords.

• RE: f17r

  Anton > 24-08-2017, 10:02 PM

  Quote:Is the Voynichese word in the text on this page?

  
  No.

• RE: f17r

  -JKP- > 24-08-2017, 10:22 PM

  I was glancing through the text to see if there are vords similar to the first VMS vord.
  
  I looked for ones starting with otee since the rest is not so clear. I couldn't find a direct match, but found these (hopefully I transcribed them correctly, I don't normally use EVA):
  
  oteeshs  f70r1 outer rings
  oteedar  f85/86v4 rings
  oteesas  f85/86v6
  oteeedy  %
  oteedaiin  rosette 4 & 5 rings
  oteeedy  rosette 5 ring
  oteesey  rosette 9 ring
  oteeysaiin  plant f90v2
  
  
  oteear  plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  oteeaM  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  oteeeor (this might be the closest)  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  oteedal  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  otee also occurs frequently with endings -y and -dy (not surprisingly).

• RE: f17r

  MarcoP > 25-08-2017, 01:11 AM

  (24-08-2017, 09:31 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I moved the subject posts into the subject thread.
  
  

  Quote:I wrote You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it could be pullamina (foal / chicks).

  
  I see "vull" rather than "pull". You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. suggests that "vull" = "voll" in some German regions (like e.g. "voll" in "Vollmond"). But the Latin-looking second part of the word would be strange in this context.
  
  

  Quote:I've noticed from the beginning that no one likes my reading of mallier aller lucorum her, but all of it is in northern dialect except luc'z (which is Latin for luc[orum] which means green).
  
  
  male, malle, mallier is "to paint" in Norse and some of the northern German and Norman regions
  aller is "all" in Norse
  her is "here" in Norse

  
  For me, there are two problems with this reading. First, that not all is painted green here. Second, that the context of the following words and vords is left unexplained. This is a single line, so "vullanima oteeeor dim" should also attract some attention.
  
  "Aller" and "her" are also valid German words, as well as "mal" and "lier" (the latter e.g. as word form of "lieren" = "lehren").

  
  Thank you, Anton!
  I can say nothing about the Norse. I can only add that, as I wrote in 2014 on the site of Stephen Bax and in 2016 in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., “lucorum” is Latin for “of the groves” or “of the woods” (genitive plural of “lucus”).
  
  

  • Aulus Gellius, Noctes Atticae (II Century) “lucorum umbra ingentium” (by the shade of its spacious groves).
    
  • 1 Kings, 18, Vulgate Bible (IV Century) “prophetasque lucorum quadringentos” (and the prophets of the groves four hundred).
    
  • Adam of Breme, Gesta Hammaburgensis Ecclesiae Pontificum (XI Century): “prohibetur accessus lucorum et fontium” (the entrance to the sacred groves and springs was inaccessible).
    
  • Athanasius Kircher, Latii tum veteris tum novi descriptio (1671) “per varias lucorum vias” (by various wooded paths).
    

  
  Green is “viridis,” there are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but they don't include “lucus”.
  In the context of a painting instruction, I would expect the ablative “viridi”, like in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: “viridi in parte inferiori picto” (painted green in the lower part).
  “picto” aside, there are innumerable examples of the use of “viridis”.
  
  E.g. Pliny (Historiae) describes a variety of figs as “sine lacte, cortice viridi” ([it] is entirely destitute of all milky juice, and has a green bark)
  
  More examples in classical and medieval Latin at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

• RE: f17r

  -JKP- > 25-08-2017, 01:41 AM

  I'll always defer to Marco on matters of Latin.
  
  I agree, lucorum = of the groves [of trees], of the chases (a more archaic word than groves).
  
  
  Luc'z can also stand for lucrum (another Latin word), but I'm not sure how it could fit in this context. Perhaps it's possible, but I don't see a clear fit.

• RE: f17r

  Helmut Winkler > 25-08-2017, 08:43 AM

  I think there are several more ways to read the "lucz",  e.g. lucem or lucet, but in this contextI I would suggest  luc[ea]m her[bam], one of the Alchemical Herbs

• RE: f17r

  MarcoP > 25-08-2017, 12:58 PM

  (25-08-2017, 08:43 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think there are several more ways to read the "lucz",  e.g. lucem or lucet, but in this contextI I would suggest  luc[ea]m her[bam], one of the Alchemical Herbs

  
  Thank you, Helmut!
  This is an interesting idea. In particular, the Vermont herbal has four different versions of Luccia, two have eyes on the leaves:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  The one at p.24 is suggested as a cure for eye-diseases. This seems relevant to me because the root of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. seems to have two eyes. 
  
  The connection could also work independently of the Alchemical plant, since You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (accusative "lucem") can also mean eye or eyesight. 
  
  I don't remember if you ever wrote what you think of the other words in that line?
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