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• RE: f17r

  Searcher > 02-08-2025, 10:31 PM

  Hmm. "Luczen":
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  Automatic Google recognise:
  

  Quote:Herde dorthin zu treiben zum Weiden. „Ach", habe er gesagt, dao lusen (lausen ziehen) se jao alle 'rum." So habe der ganze Distrikt den Namen Luse oder Lausebusch erhalten. Das Gekünstelte dieser Erklärung liegt auf der Hand und hat einen ähnlichen Ursprung wie Wart-burg; Wol-mir-stedt; (des) Mann's-feld; Ach-alm und manche andere. Durch den Hinweis auf die lüneburgische Gegend kommt jedoch Licht über den Namen. Da kommt nämlich bei Maschen (Gericht Pattensen) noch heute ein Forstort vor: „Lausemoor" und lekteres soll dem alten Luczenmoor gleich sein, von dem das Stift Verden den Rottzehnt in Anspruch nahm [Verd. Gesch. I, S. 47]. Dies Luczen oder Lause hat aber nichts zu thun mit lusen oder lausen = herumziehen, sondern es liegt dem Namen wohl das altslavische Wort luza Sumpf zu Grunde [Brückner S. 74]. Dies paßt auch treffend für unser in Frage stehendes Lusebuschland, zumal es unweit eines früher wendischen Dorses liegt.

  
  
  Google translation:
  To drive herds there to graze. "Ah," he said, "the lice (lice) are all wandering around." Thus, the entire district received the name Luse or Lausebusch. The artificiality of this explanation is obvious, and it has a similar origin to Wartburg; Wolmirstedt; (des) Mann's-feld; Ach-alm, and many others. However, the reference to the Lüneburg region sheds light on the name. A forestry site still exists today near Maschen (Pattensen court): "Lausemoor," and the lekteres is said to be similar to the old Luczenmoor, from which the Verden Abbey claimed the Rott tithe [Verd. Gesch. I, p. 47].  This Luczen or Lause, however, has nothing to do with lusen or lausen = to wander around, but the name is probably based on the Old Slavic word luza, swamp [Brückner p. 74]. This also aptly fits our Lusebuschland in question, especially since it lies not far from a former Wendish village.

• RE: f17r

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 02-08-2025, 11:21 PM

  (02-08-2025, 08:32 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think there's a misunderstanding here.

  
  Yes it was.
  So I understand the trouble here now.
  

  (02-08-2025, 08:32 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I meant to say is that "cz" in German manuscripts always (as far as I'm aware) stands for the sound "tz". Sometimes scribes write only "z", but the sound is the same. For example, in medieval documents you can find both czehn and zehn.

  
  Not quite. In modern German, if first letter, the Z is standalone - it was different before, like your czehn and zehn. If somewhere midword, it is often the tz combination - today and in earlier times. 
  In older manuscripts, the t may appear as c , I saw that yesterday in my own examples. But the letter can mostly be identified as T because it is a bit higher than the following "3" / Z. Not much, hardly recognizable. I have never seen a "real" cz with meaning "tz", so I asked for your example. 
  This line in VMS f17 shows clearly a (real) c and the "3" / z, and these letters are the best visible of whole line. The "c" does not look like a medieval "t" here at all; therefore, each German reacts here with "cz is not one of our combinations, must be Czech!" as I did.
  
  

  (02-08-2025, 08:32 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In summary: when the cz ligature is used in Medieval German texts, it stands for the sound "tz". But it is not the exclusive way to represent this sound.

  
  Regarding the "c" as a shy litttle "t", this could be right.
  
  

  (02-08-2025, 08:32 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I asked you is the following: since you think we should look at other languages, do you know how the ligature functioned in medieval texts in those languages?

  Late already, have to track that the next days.
  
  But "Chronica" up there gives another hint: the "un" between "fünffhundert ein un dreyssig" with a line above it (just like in VMS) is an "und", where the dash serves as abbreviation for the "d" (or even "t", if a writer had other ideas of writing): I have seen this type of abbreviation in other german scripts before.
  Must admit this would point a bit back to German as language of this VMS annotation, though the dash of f17 is spanning both letters; but when it is Czech or a different language, the dash may have a completely other function.
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