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Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
- Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
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RE: Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
bi3mw > 15-01-2025, 07:23 PM
(14-01-2025, 08:56 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... his finger shows the audience a "June wedding", generally personifying the summer season with this sign.
If summer was the main time for weddings, spring was considered a time of awakening, also in the relationship between men and women. There are several examples of this in the courtly love poetry. Even though courtly love poetry was mainly written only until around the middle of the 13th century, there were still works in the 14th century (e.g. Kolmarer Liederhandschrift, BSB Cgm 4997, arround 1460) that are in this tradition. Here is a poem by Walther von der Vogelweide:
German
Wenn die Blumen aus dem Grase dringen,
Gleich als lachten sie zur hellen Sonne,
Des Morgens früh an einem Maientag,
Wenn die kleinen Vöglein munter singen,
Ihre schönsten Weisen, welche Wonne
An solche Lust dann wohl noch reichen mag?
Halb gleicht's wohl schon dem Himmelreiche;
Soll ich nennen aber, was ihm gleiche,
So weiß ich, was mein Auge je
Noch mehr entzückt hat und auch stets
entzücken wird, wenn ich es seh'.
Wo ein edles Fräulein, hold zu schauen,
Wohl gekleidet und das Haar geschmücket,
Sich unter Leuten heitern Sinns ergeht,
Sittsam froh, vereint mit andern Frauen,
Nur zuweilen etwas um sich blicket
Und wie die Sonne über Sternen steht:
Da bring' der Mai uns alle Wunder,
Was wohl wär' so Wonnereiches drunter,
Als ihr viel minniglicher Leib?
Wir lassen alle Blumen steh'n
und schau'n nur an das schöne Weib.
Nun wohlan, wollt ihr die Wahrheit schauen,
Geh'n wir zu des Maien Jubelfeste,
Der jetzt ins Land mit allen Kräften kam!
Schaut ihn an und sehet schöne Frauen,
Was von beiden da wohl sei das beste,
Und sagt, ob ich das bess're Teil nicht nahm?
Ach, wenn mich einer wählen hieße,
Daß ich eines für das andre ließe,
Wie bald doch wär' die Wahl gescheh'n!
Herr Mai, Ihr möchtet März sein, eh'
ich sollt' von meiner Herrin geh'n!
From: Poems by Walther von der Vogelweide
Translated and explained by Bruno Obermann
Stuttgart Berlin Leipzig 1886 (pp. 28-29)
English ( not entirely error-free )
When flowers sprout from the grass,
As if they laughed to greet the bright sun,
On an early morning of a May day,
When little birds sing joyfully,
Their sweetest tunes—oh, what delight
Could match such joy in sheer delight?
Half, perhaps, it mirrors heaven’s splendor;
But should I name what matches it closer,
I know well what my eyes have seen,
And will forever thrill to see again.
Where a noble lady, fair to behold,
Well dressed, her hair adorned with grace,
Walks among people with a cheerful mind,
Modestly glad, united with other women,
Only glancing around now and then,
As the sun above the stars does shine:
Let May bring us all its wonders—
What could be so filled with bliss among them,
As her most tender, lovely form?
We leave all flowers standing still
And gaze only at the beautiful woman.
Now then, if you would see the truth,
Let us go to May’s festival of joy,
Which now has come with all its might!
Look at it and behold fair women—
Which of these is truly the best?
And say if I have not chosen well.
Ah, if someone bade me choose,
To leave one and keep the other,
How swiftly would my choice be made!
Dear May, you might as well be March,
Before I’d part from my lady fair!
In general, I would assume the period from March to May to be spring in Europe.
Edit: The (late) medieval "pastourelle" also takes place in a spring setting. -
RE: Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
MarcoP > 16-01-2025, 07:42 AM
The four ages from BAV Reg. Lat. 1256 f.42v (again Aldebrandin de Sienne, Regime du corps, France, 15th Century).
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From the gestures, it seems clear that the four men form two couples engaged in dialogue, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. about another illustration.
In this case, all figures have attributes: bow, glove, glove, two staffs. -
RE: Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
Koen G > 16-01-2025, 10:01 AM
The stylistics here are quite interesting. The appearance of the walking stick is closer to that in the VM than the canes in the later Laufenberg MSS.
The way doctors' and scholars' hair style and headgear is drawn is also quite clear. And in this one we see an example of how the two rounded end of the doctor's scarf could lead to a reinterpretation as breasts.
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RE: Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
Koen G > 17-01-2025, 02:30 PM
I have an idea about why the pointing person with skull cap might be facing right, going against the tendency of the others: if he were found as an authoritative scholar in an initial, he would need to face right to point at the text.
Régime du corps
France, perhaps Rouen, ca. 1440-1450
MS M.0165 fol. 5r
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Quote:Initial D inhabited by half-figure of author Aldobrandino da Siena, wearing cap and red ermine-trimmed garments of physician, raising right forefinger, behind decorated lectern, in landscape beneath starry night sky. Miniature and historiated initial in Prologue of Aldobrandino da Siena, Régime du Corps.
(nice MS overall by the way, lots of plants) -
RE: Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
Bernd > 17-01-2025, 11:49 PM
The manuscript has a tower with two spikes on top -
RE: Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
Bluetoes101 > 18-01-2025, 12:54 AM
I had one of them DVD screen saver type thoughts bouncing around my head but never hitting a corner.. just sharing to try and get rid of it..
Childhood. spring, new life - flower
Adolescence. The scholar/student, education, learning - the learned man point
Adult. The doctor, having a profession - your.. pee bottle pose
Growing old. - Cane and rosary
Most of this has been stated (I think), but the idea I guess is where the "learned pointing man" fits in, maybe it is the step between ones childhood and professional life
You could add "get married" - ring.. if you really wanted to stick your neck out -
RE: Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
MarcoP > 18-01-2025, 08:10 AM
As I wrote You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I think that West/North/East/South is one of the two possible arrangements, if one believes that the f85r2 circle is related with the four ages of life.
The other option is counter-clockwise: North/West/South/East.
About the ring, we haven't discussed it much. I would be interested in illustrations that represent a ring in a similar way. In medieval manuscripts, rings are often held as attributes, or handled between two figures: in those cases, they usually are unrealistically large, so that they are more recognizable (this is true for many important attributes in medieval art). -
RE: Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
Bluetoes101 > 18-01-2025, 03:14 PM
The visual aid seems to be "text starts here" (then continues clockwise), doesn't have to mean the image follows suit but I made that assumption.
![[Image: west.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/bwMV8r2g/west.jpg)
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RE: Conjectures about the “man without attributes” ( f85r2 )
MarcoP > 20-01-2025, 07:37 AM