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Getting close to a source for f85r2

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• Getting close to a source for f85r2

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  oshfdk > 08-01-2025, 12:27 PM

  I think this is a very cool find!
  
  If the vial is indeed a reference to uroscopy, what the whole sequence in VMS could signify? I mean, "summer of life" "autumn of life" "uroscopy" looks like a "find one odd out" exercise   Unless the whole MS is talking about medicine as profession, then one's life would indeed look like birth-happy youth-some uroscopy-senescence.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  bi3mw > 08-01-2025, 01:58 PM

  A prominent nose must have something to say in medieval imagery. I just don't know what.
  
     
  Universität Kassel, 2° Ms. astron. 1, Passauer Calendar, folio 83r
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  Note: The two-faced god Janus is depicted here for January. It is still unclear why the nose is so prominent.
  
  

  ---

  Quote:Even in ancient times, the external shape of the human nose was regarded as a reference to the nature of its wearer: small, pointed noses belonged to inferior, servile, deceitful people; long noses indicated sharpness of mind and justice; curved “aquiline nose” spoke of a generous, magnanimous and proud nature; liars had a broad nose and so on.
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  Very late, but almost certainly also valid in the late Middle Ages:
  
  Giambattista della Porta’s De humana physiognomonia libri IIII (1586)
     
  English ( machine translation ):
  “Those who have a curved nose, especially if it is short and arched, are said to be magnanimous, after the example of the eagles. Aristotle remarks in his 'Physiognomics', and Polemon takes this from him, that a large nose indicates this quality, but a curved nose is even more strongly associated with magnanimity. Albertus Magnus compares eagles to lions in terms of magnanimity and attributes this quality to eagles to a greater degree. Therefore, it is said that those who have a curved nose and wear the mark of an eagle are recognized as such [magnanimous]. However, if the curved nose is very long and deep, it indicates eloquence rather than magnanimity. Furthermore, Aristotle explains about the curved nose that those who possess such a nose are wiser and more astute.”
  
  Aristotle, Physiognomics, page 69, 811a/36
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  The following would fit the “digitus virilis”.
  
  Polemon: Textbook of Physiognomics
  Chapter XXVI <Physiognomics of the nose>.
  ....
  A vulture's nose ... and blunt betrays fornication and a penchant for sensuality.
  ....
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• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  MarcoP > 08-01-2025, 02:07 PM

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• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Koen G > 08-01-2025, 02:39 PM

  In the printed edition apparently they have three women with flowers for spring, summer, autumn, and then the one with the cane for winter. In the MS, they already give her a cane in autumn and she's double caning in winter 

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Bluetoes101 > 08-01-2025, 03:32 PM

  A comparison could also be made to the figure on the same fold out, in the "moon section". It is on the righthand side, as with the "sun section".
  
  
  
  Roughly traced for clarity. 
  Probably stretching, but I wonder if the weird line between the eyes and hairline was the start of a hat then the artist decided against it.
  
  

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  oshfdk > 08-01-2025, 04:59 PM

  (08-01-2025, 11:32 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let's see if we can increase that to a 2/10
  
  Let's start with the old woman. I didn't see it either at first, but she is hunched. There's an optical illusion where her elbow and the rosary (?) appear to create an additional part of her dress. I colored the sky in the image below to make it clearer.
  
  The differences are there, but the idea is the same and the execution of the idea is similar enough to say that they likely belong to the same tradition. 

  
  Weirdly, for me your explanation had the opposite effect.  Now I'm not sure there is a connecting idea between two sets of images, other than that all of them show human(oid) figures interacting with some objects, and some of the objects look somewhat similar.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Koen G > 08-01-2025, 05:15 PM

  (08-01-2025, 03:32 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A comparison could also be made to the figure on the same fold out, in the "moon section". It is on the righthand side, as with the "sun section".

  
  Well spotted, I think it is quite similar and indeed may rely on the same image. The figure is looking at a yellow ball while pointing at something that is written. 
  
  
  This refines our expected source image: it's the doctor sitting at the desk with the book, but he is wearing a featureless scull cap (ala Karlsruhe) rather than a taller hat (ala LOC and the printed version). 
  
  It would be interesting to look some more into the types of hats or caps that were used to denote doctors or learned figures in general. I've been going over some medieval medicine imagery and it's remarkable how often the learned man can be recognized by his headgear (centuries before and after the VM). Quite often it is indeed red, but not always.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Bluetoes101 > 08-01-2025, 06:28 PM

  Well here is some very interesting head gear, from the same "moon section". Given we have someone apparently shooting lightning out their hands nearby I had wondered if it was in reference to hermes.. but maybe the yellow colour tricks my mind. The "wings" could be leaves or feathers.. or something else. No idea honestly but would be interesting to find something similar.
  
  
  
  I roughly traced all of them a while ago, not sure if they will be of any use but I have them on hand so will chuck in here. These images are probably my favourite in the manuscript because they feel like an easter egg, images hidden in images. 
  
  
  
  (edit, I wonder if the lines are meant to go the other way and it is representing drawing power from something, given the rest of the image maybe the moon, it would be less fantastical than shooting lightning..)

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Koen G > 08-01-2025, 06:40 PM

  That's the problem with that diagram: have 10 people trace the images, and you'll get 10 different results. The absence of red (and green?) isn't helping.
  
  Apart from that, the VM "nymphs" often show a fuzzy boundary between hair and headgear.
  
  The skull cap in the other diagram is clear because they put blue paint on it.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Aga Tentakulus > 08-01-2025, 07:07 PM

      You think one like this.
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