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Historical persons in VMs
- Historical persons in VMs
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Historical persons in VMs
R. Sale > 23-09-2024, 10:30 PM
Historical persons have been found in the VMs illustration You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - White Aries. Two persons can be identified, who were popes in the mid and latter parts of the 13th century. They were Innocent IV and Adrian V. Two popes from Genoa, Sinibaldo Fieschi and his nephew, Ottobuono Fieschi. They are identified by their heraldry.
Heraldry was widely used as a method of communication and the heraldic elements here are clearly seen, but somewhat more difficult to interpret because of historical obscurity and the artist's intentional obfuscation.
The two primary heraldic elements are the pattern of alternating blue stripes on the dexter diagonal (paired), and the hat on the inner ring nymph with the combination of blue stripes and a red galero. While neither heraldic element is highly specific on its own, the combination of the two elements leads to these particular historical facts.
As Pope Innocent IV, Sinibaldo Fieschi did 1) initiate the tradition of the cardinal's red galero, 2) make his nephew, Ottobuono, a cardinal (1251), 3) approve the original foundation of the Poor Clares. The cardinal's red galero served as a designation of rank in the church hierarchy. The armorial blazon, 'Bendy, argent et azure" describes the Fieschi insignia. The combination of these two heraldic elements constitutes a unique historical marker and identifies the individuals involved.
The matter of the artist's intentional obfuscation becomes clear when the existence of dualistic construction becomes evident - specifically regarding the orientation of the blue stripes when viewed from a more dominant, radial perspective or a less evident, isolated perspective, when it is the more hidden perspective that corresponds with historical events and various other aspects of confirmation built into the structure of the White Aries illustration.
Considering that these facts were historical at the time of the VMs C-14 dates, reveals that the artist was aware of some fairly exclusive information in relation to Catholic church history and tradition and that s/he chose to disguise it. -
RE: Historical persons in VMs
Ruby Novacna > 23-09-2024, 11:59 PM
(23-09-2024, 10:30 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The two primary heraldic elements are the pattern of alternating blue stripes on the dexter diagonal (paired), and the hat on the inner ring nymph with the combination of blue stripes and a red galero.
Can you add some small pictures please? -
RE: Historical persons in VMs
R. Sale > 24-09-2024, 08:54 PM
Small pictures of what? The link to the VMs page has magnification. If there are details to discuss, name them. Certainly, a number of topics remain unexamined - the perceived use of hatching lines, for example.
Before that, consider the ideological differences between 'depiction' and 'representation'. The thing about depiction is accuracy. The thing about representation is identity.
In these pictures of elephants, the accuracy of depiction varies substantially. Yet all representations were clearly intended to be identified as elephants.
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The same must apply to the VMs image. These perons are not recognized by their appearance. They are identified by their heraldic attributes. Since the combination of attributes is historically specific, a connection can be found.
The White Aries identification relies on basic heraldry. The White Aries illustration is also clearly dualistic. There are other examples of trickery, disguise, deception, obfuscation and ambiguity elsewhere as well.
In the White Aries illustration, the VMs artist presents the potential investigator with a puzzle - the Genoese Gambit. Does the investigator know the armorial insignia of the pope who established the tradition of the cardinal's red galero? -
RE: Historical persons in VMs
Koen G > 24-09-2024, 09:02 PM
Which nymphs specifically represent the historical figures? There are several on that page with a wide-rimmed red hat, but most of them have breasts. -
RE: Historical persons in VMs
R. Sale > 24-09-2024, 10:15 PM
The Fieschi blazon is bendy, argent et azure. The identification is simple. The actual representation is a bit more complex. The two nymphs with blue-striped tub patterns are off toward 10 o'clock on White Aries. The clear dualism of perspective in the radial versus non-radial interpretation of these striped patterns is one of the clearest examples of intentional disguise in the VMs. Once the red galero and the relevant historical information are combined, the disguised interpretation becomes apparent.
In 1251 Pope Innocent IV (Sinibaldo Fieschi) made his nephew, Ottobuono Fieschi, a cardinal. Sinibaldo had earlier initiated the tradition of the cardinal's red galero as a mark of ecclesiastical rank. Ottobuono later became Pope Adrian V.
In addition to the historical confirmations based on the combination of these armorial and ecclesiastical heraldic elements, additional positional confirmations are built into the structure of the White Aries illustration and beyond. These independent structural confirmations include proper hierarchical placement, favored heraldic positioning, medallion selection, and heraldic canting from the preceding zodiac pages.
How the nymphs appear, whether they are relevant to the heraldic elements, doesn't really have much significance. It's the attributes that determine the interpretation and they make the historical connection. -
RE: Historical persons in VMs
RobGea > 24-09-2024, 11:56 PM
Hopefully, its these two.
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RE: Historical persons in VMs
R. Sale > 25-09-2024, 07:08 AM
Yes, indeed. That's them. However, by taking these examples from the radial perspective and turning them to a vertical orientation, the alternative non-radial interpretation of the orientation of the striped patterns as they sit on the page, without any other distractions, has been completely lost. It's a natural thing to do and that is the obvious intent of the dualistic representation. In contrast, on their own, taken in isolation, as they sit on the page, both blue-striped patterns are examples of diagonal stripes with the heraldic dexter orientation. This interpretation is validated because, with the combination of the red galero, it corresponds with historical events, and is further confirmed by the objective, structural factors listed above. -
RE: Historical persons in VMs
Koen G > 25-09-2024, 07:10 AM
The one on the right is certainly meant as a woman. -
RE: Historical persons in VMs
Ruby Novacna > 25-09-2024, 08:14 AM
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RE: Historical persons in VMs
Aga Tentakulus > 25-09-2024, 02:04 PM
The question should be, why should Fieschi (Pope Innocent IV) be mentioned in the VM 200 years later? Died 1252.
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Why does the family coat of arms not match. (inclination)
Why does the hat not match.
Why does he have breasts and why is he in a barrel?
Why do you see the white ram in the VM as so important?
I don't see any obvious correspondence.