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• RE: Historical persons in VMs

  R. Sale > 25-09-2024, 06:15 PM

  (25-09-2024, 07:10 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The one on the right is certainly meant as a woman.

  
  First of all, once the possibility of the Fieschi connection to church tradition is recognized, it is clear that the radial structure has been put in place as a 'cloaking device'. The VMs artist is clearly willing to use disguise, deception, and ambiguity to obfuscate the intended identification here, as well as the cosmos, mermaid, etc. So, there is always the possibility of intentional trickery.
  
  There are indications that the figure was originally inked "as female" - meaning "having breasts and assumed to be female". Then the figure's arms and torso were painted red. Enter good old VMs ambiguity. Does the red paint on the figure represent clothing? Is the figure clothed or naked?
  
  I know nothing of the personal appearance of Ottobuono Fieschi. Was he a tall man or a short man? A thin man or overweight? There is a condition among overweight men called gynecomastia. So, if the figure is clothed, how can one tell the difference? There is potential ambiguity regarding the figure's gender.
  
  The gender determination is not that relevant. It is the heraldic elements that make the historical identification, if the investigator can make the historical recognition and connection to the Fieschi popes. Then the historical identification is further validated by four independent, objective, structural confirmations.

• RE: Historical persons in VMs

  cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 25-09-2024, 08:29 PM

  I believe that both white and black Aries are related to the religious and political situation in Europe. That means that the connection of pope Innocent IV cannot be excluded, since he was the one who permitted Croatians to use Glagolitic script and liturgy in their national language. In the 15th century there was again a strong call for the use of vernacular languages in liturgy. 
  Pope Innocent IV was also protector of Ottokar, the Slavic king of Bohemia. Under this king, Bohemian kingdom extended all the way to the Adriatic sea, which means present day Slovenia was part of Bohemian kingdom.
  Ottokar II was a member of the Premyslid dynasty with many titles, like Margrave of Moravia, Duke of Austria, Duke of Styria, Duke of Carinthia and landgrave of Carniola.
  Pope Innocent IV also approved the Second Order of the Fransiscans, the followers of St. Clare of Assisi. The Order of St. Francis of Assisi was active in Glagolitic Croatian Church in the 15th century and also activelly worked for the conversion of the Bosanski Krstjani, the members of Bosnian Bogomil Church.
  
  After the last male descendant of the Angevine line of Hungary passed away, his daughter Mary became Queen of Hungary, but the Croatian and Slavonian nobility rebelled and wanted Charles of Neaple to be their king. Charles was assassinated and Sigismund as Mary's husband ruled the kingdom of Hungary.
  
  So, in a way the symbol could be the Angevine, and the person in the tub could be a woman from the Angevine (Anjou) line.

• RE: Historical persons in VMs

  R. Sale > 25-09-2024, 08:52 PM

  (25-09-2024, 02:04 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The question should be, why should Fieschi (Pope Innocent IV) be mentioned in the VM 200 years later? Died 1252.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Why does the family coat of arms not match. (inclination)
  Why does the hat not match.
  Why does he have breasts and why is he in a barrel?
  Why do you see the white ram in the VM as so important?
  I don't see any obvious correspondence.

  
  1) Innocent IV was the pope that authorized the foundation of the Poor Clares. Then, during VMs C-14 dates, Colette of Corbie led a revival supported by dukes and duchesses, e.g. Burgundy, and the duchess of Auvergne, (who was originally Marie of Berry. She is the presumed owner of BNF Fr. 565 between 1416 and 1434.) Members of this group would be more likely to have knowledge of Sinibaldo Fieschi's role in the original foundation.
  
  Furthermore, if the sleeping nymph with the ring and her 'companion' with the cross are reflective of the stories from Colette of Corbie's biography - well then, there's that.
  
  2) Finding the proper match can be a bit tricky. Differences in the various pictorial representations are indicative of the confusion. In the VMs, don't fall for the interpretation based on the radial perspective. As the two blue-striped patterns sit on the page in isolation, the blue stripes are oriented in a diagonal direction that is compatible with the bendy orientation of the Fieschi insignia.
  
  Two patterns of alternating blue stripes and a clear connection to a large reddish hat. Is that enough to awaken recognition in someone who already knows the relevant historical facts?
  
  3) The hat is ambiguous. This hat does not have the knobby little top like the others. According to a statement from Wikipedia regarding the medieval representation of these red galero hats - the description is quite singular but the actual depiction is rather variable.  Is the VMs version close enough to trigger recognition when combined with the blue-striped patterns? That is all that matters.
  
  4) See answer to Koen above. Tubs with patterns are prevalent on the Pisces and Aries pages. The patterns on various tubs have interesting comparisons to selected standard heraldic designs, particularly those with alternating stripes. There is a certain degree of ambiguity as to whether the illustrations represent tubs or shields with armorial insignia.
  
  5) Based on the assumed identification of two historical religious persons on this page placed among the celestial spheres, it is possible to expand upon that celestial connection. Thus, it is that White Aries, on the most thoroughly painted page in the VMs Zodiac sequence, is the only white animal that is suitable for celestial sacrifice according to tradition that goes back to the ancient Greeks. It lends support to the Fieschi identification that other options would not.
  
  Hope this helps.

• RE: Historical persons in VMs

  R. Sale > 25-09-2024, 11:03 PM

  The problem of defining a proper heraldic depiction is evident in the example included in the link. Vertical and horizontal patterns are self-evident, chevrons are interesting, and diagonals are problematic. In the description / blazon of these patterns the primary tincture is placed in the heraldic upper right / dexter position. Sometimes that results in the bisection of the angle with the primary tincture (argent) as the first stripe on the top line as in this case - as it should be. However, there is another rule that needs to be applied additionally to bendy patterns, which is that the primary tincture should also occupy the first stripe of the insignia. In the example linked, the crescent-like slice at the lower left is blue, and that is wrong, when the blazon is bendy, argent et azure. And if that error is corrected, then the color scheme is reversed, violating the first rule. Either way something is wrong.
  
  The problem is insoluble in the system being used to depict this heraldic pattern. The graphic system is incapable of satisfying the more general rule and the bendy specific rule at the same time. The problem is an inherent structural flaw that results from the generation of three stripes off the top line. The situation is corrected by the use of a structural pattern that takes four stripes off the top line and satisfies both rules. An example of which can be found in the tomb of Ottobuono Fieschi.

• RE: Historical persons in VMs

  R. Sale > 26-09-2024, 10:13 PM

  Besides the heraldic identification of two historical, religious persons based on the combination of paired, blue-striped insignia and a red galero, the VMs contains four independent, built-in, structural confirmations of this historical interpretation.
  
  1) Proper hierarchical placement has the pope in the higher celestial sphere than the cardinal.
  
  2) Favored heraldic positioning has both pope and cardinal in the heraldic upper right quadrant of the illustration.
  
  3) Pope and cardinal have celestial connections. White Aries as a *white* sacrificial animal would be used for celestial sacrifice.
  
  4) Scale-like patterns in the outer ring of VMs Pisces and the inner ring of VMs Dark Aries reflect structural correspondence in quadrant and in sphere with the blue-striped patters on VMs White Aries. The key to recognizing the intentional construction is in the proper naming of the obscure heraldic fur (papellony) and the two historical figures, who were both popes [Innocent IV and Adrian V] combined with the recognition that the French word for 'pope' is 'pape'. It's an elaborate and sophisticated structure that sits there unrecognized by investigators that don't have the requisite information. <And who can blame them? It's such an obscure bit of heraldic trivia. But it is relevant and historically valid.>

• RE: Historical persons in VMs

  R. Sale > 27-09-2024, 07:24 PM

  There is a certain difficulty in the interpretation of the two tub patterns with regard to their appearance. It is naturally assumed that things that are the same should look the same. And here, they don't.
  
  Remember the lesson of the cosmic investigation. The VMs artist employs the maximum amount of visual difference within the bounds of structural integrity. Thus, in comparison with the unique cosmic structures of BNF Fr. 565 and Harley 334 and their pictorial representation of the inverted T-O Earth, the VMs has used vords. Appearance has been totally altered, but structure remains in place. That's why the structural confirmations in White Aries are important.
  
  The two blue-striped patterns differ in the way they have been drawn - the ink part. This leads to various questions, starting with VMs Pisces, as to how patterns of alternating lines *should* be drawn, and then how they were drawn in the VMs?
  
  Then the question, how should these elements be interpreted? What are the different markings? This is not fully resolved. How do these interpretations combine with the blue, painted stripes? The reliance on appearance leads to more unresolved confusion.
  
  The problem is that the interpretations do not combine. Such combination is a flawed assumption that is not valid in heraldry. It's a sort of "any fool knows that" situation mean to misdirect those who don't know what they're doing. It could be intentional obfuscation. Nevertheless, the paired patterns of diagonal blue stripes are still there along with the hat and everything else, waiting for the reader who knows the armorial history of the origins of the tradition of the cardinal's red galero, and more importantly, perhaps, they were subtly put in place by someone making covert use of that information.
  
  And then there is the connection with Stolfi's marker. How many paths to 'the solution' might there be? The VMs was created as a puzzle. It's one or none.

• RE: Historical persons in VMs

  Aga Tentakulus > 28-09-2024, 04:30 AM

  3) Pope and cardinal have celestial connections. White Aries as a *white* sacrificial animal would be used for celestial sacrifice.
  
  Point 3: The ram is not a sacrificial animal (Sacrificial lamb), it is the protector or guardian of life.
  It protects the fish that wear the ribbon of life.
  This refers to the awakening of life (nature) where each year begins anew.

• RE: Historical persons in VMs

  R. Sale > 28-09-2024, 11:12 PM

  Sometimes the nature of the interpretation depends on the lens through which the evidence is seen. 
  
  "It (the ram) protects the fish that wear the ribbon of life." Sounds sort of astrological. Could you be more specific about the cultures that supported this philosophy?
  
  The classical interpretation is based on the religion of classical Greece. White animals for celestial gods and black animals for the chthonic deities. It's implicit in Homer where Odysseus sacrifices a black ram to raise the spirits of the dead.
  
  Anyway, it's not like one interpretation necessarily excludes another. It has been suggested by another researcher, that the VMs version of Virgo was a subtle combination of the astrological virgin and the Virgin Mary standing on a crescent moon. Other illustrations in the VMs can also be interpreted as pairings of various sorts. It seems to be something that the VMs artist did in several illustrations. History is still headed toward the sympathetic connections of Ficino. Things only get worse from here. 
  
  That's the thing about White Aries, once you see that the dualism is built into the structure, you also find the historical reality hidden in the alternative interpretation - assuming sufficient familiarity with the relevant historical facts. However, the reality is that none of the old VMs investigators every got round to heraldry, apparently. Heraldry is sufficient to establish historical fact.

• RE: Historical persons in VMs

  R. Sale > 02-10-2024, 07:23 PM

  The VMs is a puzzle. It was constructed to be a puzzle, rather than an explanatory text. The dualism of White Ares is proof that one perspective is promoted while an alternate perspective has been disguised. It is an alternate perspective with historical connections in an illustration containing several structural confirmations based on cultural interpretations of medieval heraldry.
  
  The puzzle question posed by White Aries: Does the reader know the armorial insignia of the pope who initiated the tradition of the cardinal's red galero? The answer is intentionally obfuscated on the page. It wouldn't be that way for a normal, explanatory text. The VMs cosmos, mermaid, etc. confirm this.
  
  Does the reader know? That is the question posed here. Lots of browsing - no comments. What is the VMs artist doing on the White Aries page? The particular combination of armorial and ecclesiastical heraldic elements presented are sufficient to reveal historical facts despite the artist's intentional disguise.
  
  Why has the VMs artist chosen to disguise historical fact regarding a religious tradition?

• RE: Historical persons in VMs

  Ruby Novacna > 10-10-2024, 04:42 PM

  (23-09-2024, 10:30 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Historical persons have been found in the VMs illustration You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - White Aries.

  
  While researching Phalaros, the white ram, I came across this footnote :
  Μέλας κριός καὶ λευκός κριός ἦσαν δύο φυλαὶ Τουρκομανικαὶ, οὕτω καλούμεναι ἀπὸ τοῦ ἐν τῇ σημαίᾳ αὐτῶν συμβόλου τοῦ λευκοῦ καὶ μέλανος κριοῦ. Παρά τισι τῶν Βυζαντινῶν καλοῦν- Ασπροπρόβατοι καὶ Μαυροπρόβατοι.
  Translated by Google :
  Black ram and white ram were two Turkmen tribes, so called from the symbol of the white and black ram in their flag. Despite what the Byzantines call - White sheep and Black sheep.
  I don't know if this detail has already been discussed on this forum.
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