I had an idea recently that we could advance to some success in the following way - we write down the possible variants and then see which combinations thereof form a valid grammatical phrase together. For example "multos" is a word form, likewise "te" is also a word form (ablative or accusative, if I remember correctly). Those various word forms should form the puzzle together consistently. In other words, these words should be analyzed not isolated, but in a single grammatical context.

(29-03-2017, 04:00 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had an idea recently that we could advance to some success in the following way - we write down the possible variants and then see which combinations thereof form a valid grammatical phrase together. For example "multos" is a word form, likewise "te" is also a word form (ablative or accusative, if I remember correctly.

  As much as I can judge,  "te" doesn't fit here anyway. (in Latin,  at least).

"Anzi con" in Genovese dialect (it was a common word and almost always at the beginnings of sentences):

"Puo con doi oggi, como baveivi avanti
Anzi con dei bruxenti, echieri Soi
Bruxaui, e orbivi, ri vostri galanti:"

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I've been reading about dialects in the Lombardy/Piedmont/northern Italian area for a while, but I hadn't come across this book until today... It's by Longfellow, et al, and includes a nice 19th-century summation of dialects in that area (pp. 504 to 506). It's worthwhile reading because it was published in 1871, before the invention of radios melded and somewhat standardized languages, and gives a sense of the diversity and blending of languages that occurred in this region:

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Trinity College MS O.1.57 also has some examples of healing charms. This one includes repetition and crosses (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.):

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Always thought there was written:  so nim gaf mich o
When you remove the presumed dot on the I you can see there could be in fact 2 m's which then results in: so mm gaf mich o

(29-03-2017, 04:00 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had an idea recently that we could advance to some success in the following way - we write down the possible variants and then see which combinations thereof form a valid grammatical phrase together. For example "multos" is a word form, likewise "te" is also a word form (ablative or accusative, if I remember correctly). Those various word forms should form the puzzle together consistently. In other words, these words should be analyzed not isolated, but in a single grammatical context.

I'm coming characteristically late to the party, but as well as being a grammatical phrase you should probably be looking for something which fits metrically too.  

Philip Neal noted on the mailing list years back that the first half of line 1 is, metrically, the first part of a Latin hexameter.  I'm pretty sure the rest is meant to be too.  A reading like:

anchiton ola dabas multos te carcere portas

gives a proper metrical hexameter.  I'm not saying this means this is the correct reading, but it's certainly encouraging.

If this line is meant to be a hexameter, the metre gives us some constraints on possible readings.  For example, the 'o' of 'anchiton' has to be short to give the initial dactyl, which means that any attempt to connect it with Greek 'chiton', which has a long 'o', can't be right.  It also means the the two syllables before 'portas' have to be short, so you shouldn't have anything like 'cerae' which has a long second syllable.

Apologies if I'm repeating what someone else has already pointed out, but I've looked through all 28 pages of this thread and couldn't obviously see it

A propos, Nick Pelling recently posted something about the 'Cisiojanus' mnemonic, which was new to me:

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which is a mixture of identifiable Latin words and fragments of others joined together in...a Latin hexameter.

(29-03-2017, 05:14 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  As much as I can judge,  "te" doesn't fit here anyway. (in Latin,  at least).

I don't know if this word is latin, but sometimes "te" can be latin.
More precisely, if it's the ablative form of "tu".
Tu, tui, tibi, te...

Here's an example of "te" latin.
We can admire it in south west of France, in a coffered ceiling of the castle of Dampierre-sur-Boutonne
It's written : .NEC.TE.NEC.SINE.TE. (not to you but not without you)

Hubert:

That's an interesting idea. But the immediate question is: what meter? How can one judge the meter if, without unambiguous parsing, syllables are not clear?

Myself, I always think of the first line of the spell as of what I believe is iambus (?):

Anchi-ton o-la da-bas ...

Quote:A propos, Nick Pelling recently posted something about the 'Cisiojanus' mnemonic, which was new to me:

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which is a mixture of identifiable Latin words and fragments of others joined together in...a Latin hexameter.

That's extremely intersting (somehow I missed the post or the point) - irrespectively of meter, I think.

(19-10-2017, 05:51 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hubert:

That's an interesting idea. But the immediate question is: what meter? How can one judge the meter if, without unambiguous parsing, syllables are not clear?

Myself, I always think of the first line of the spell as of what I believe is iambus (?):

Anchi-ton o-la da-bas ...

Quote:A propos, Nick Pelling recently posted something about the 'Cisiojanus' mnemonic, which was new to me:

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which is a mixture of identifiable Latin words and fragments of others joined together in...a Latin hexameter.

That's extremely intersting (somehow I missed the post or the point) - irrespectively of meter, I think.

Hi Anton,

Sorry - a dactylic hexameter:

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You are of course right that without being able to read the text securely we can't be certain it's a hexameter.  But for the the bits we *can* read clearly enough, several of the possibilities do seem to fit the metre very well.  

Anchicon ola dabas works; so would Michi con ola dabas.  (Michi is a variant form of 'mihi', which has two short i's, but the extra 'c' makes the first syllable oh 'michi' long instead of short).  And instead of 'carcere portas' at the end you can have 'Tartare portas', or pretty much any long syllable followed by *-ere portas.

Are there other examples of mediaeval charms/prayers/incantations in hexameters?  I'm sure I've seen some here?

Dunno... Never thought of them in terms of meter.