(22-12-2025, 10:59 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But what would it take for the words "Ave Maria", of all things, to become corrupted?

Pressure to rhyme the two words, coming from the six marix morix vix?  That wouldn't explain the /v/ to /b/ but those two sounds can get conflated, and it might be easier to do so if the obvious connection to "Ave Maria" has already been blurred by ave becoming avia.

Flüche auf deutsch im täglichen Leben.
Himmel Arsch und Zwirn. Oh Herr lass es Hirn regnen.

   

The ‘b’ is closed at the bottom. The writer takes care not to confuse it with an “h”. Look at the ‘b’.
The writer likes to write letters close together, so they often touch. This is a characteristic of the writer.
‘Dich Du hoch erhabener herrlichher.’ Swiss national anthem

‘erhaben’ = standing above everyone and everything.

Does it make sense in relation to a charm though? 
If I decide to remove X I can make it make sense in Old English. 
We can make it make sense in Latin and French changing X to things, and apparently also German.

Si Mari Mori Vi Abi Maria
My wife as more? Then I would have Maria. (this is just a word salad forced sentence)

It's "magic" mumbo jumbo without some "tweeks" and then the "tweeks" can be applied everywhere. 

   

Koen asked whether ‘faltzen’ could mean ‘to fold’, because in his video the idea of "falten und verbrennen" ‘folding and burning’ came up = "fal8en vbren"

And since this topic belongs in this thread, I will write the detailed answer here:

I've noticed that in English, it can't be translated one-to-one as ‘fold’.

Nowadays, the german “falzen” is mostly used in connection with letterpress printing. It refers to a sharp, permanent crease. In English, it is therefore also called creasing/scoring.

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‘Falzen’ comes from ‘Falz’ (crease).

"Falten" = "Folding" (according to Wikipedia: ) can be distinguished in this case by the fact that it is done without tools. For me as a German, there would also be a difference in the precision of the fold in terms of linguistic feel.

Both terms can be traced back to the Middle High German valte / valt / valtan.

Therefore, ‘valtzen’ can certainly be translated as folding (folding/creasing/scoring).

In medieval Bavarian, there was a p /pf/f shift. And in writing, a "v" was also often used instead of an "f" – which is why pfalzen and pbren are also possible, precisely because there was no standardised spelling in that time.

We can see the P/f and t/tz/ss shift very clearly in English/German, for example:

Low German Pund  / English pound  / High German Pfund
Low German apen  / English open / High German offen
Low German Tung  / English tongue  / High German Zunge
Low German Water / English water  / High German Wasser

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So, based on the similarity of the letters, I would now assume "paltzen" and "pbren". And so I would interpret paltzen not longer as ‘walzen’ (to roll), but also as ‘falten’ (to fold). [thanks to Koen]

And one more note: this hard pronunciation (z=tz and p = p/f) is an indication that the writer comes from the Bavarian-speaking region (Old Bavaria, possibly neighbouring regions in Austria or South Tyrol). And that in turn fits with the Austrian text on Pox.  . So now everything fits together...

_____________________

And to everyone here who has taught me so much about the Voynich Manuscript and whom I hope I have not annoyed too much with my sometimes daring   theories:

A merry, happy and peaceful Christmas! I hope you have a wonderful time with your families or friends...

I like the idea that it could be something like "fold the thing in half and burn it". But it would be useful to find some examples first. So far we know:

• ubren with diacritic on the "u" can mean "verbren", the imperative form.
  
• "verbren" is used in charm context
  
• one of those uses is specifically to burn a piece of paper on which you wrote a strong of magical words separated by crosses
  

I prefer attestation-based approaches over pure speculation. Knowing things feels much better than guessing. Our current knowledge is that "ubren" is alright for "verbrenn", but only if we assume they omitted a diacritic over the "u".

Now we need to know if there are instances of charms where the paper is folded and then burned, and also if a form like vald or vals (or even valt) is realistic. (I don't understand why you read this 8-shape like a ts-ligature). 

And then there's the issue of the two different imperative forms. In German, just like in Dutch, the imperative can be the verb stem (verbren!) or the verb infinitive (verbrennen!). Something like "valten verbren" would mix the two forms, which is very unlikely. 

This would be solved if it actually said something like "vald un vbren" -> fold and burn.

(24-12-2025, 11:13 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't understand why you read this 8-shape like a ts-ligature). 

It's so annoying, I read it once and can't find the source anymore. It had something to do with the Bavarian dialect, where "tz" (not ts) was sometimes written as a 8 Ligatur.

In Lexicon abbreviaturarum, on page 330, there is only one symbol for "ts", which looks like an 8:

   

However, most of the ligatures in the Lexicon abbreviaturarum are Latin, and ts is rather modern, while tz does not occur in Latin at all.  That is why you will not find it there. Tz is pure german.

But you can also deduce it this way:

From the symbols on page 359 of Lexicon abbreviaturarum, it appears that z was written more or less like a 3, among other things. And on page 330, there are spellings in which the t alone was written more or less like an 8. 

   

If you want to write the 8 of the t and the 3 of the z together as one ligature, it makes sense to combine them directly as a single 8. Especially since tz is not actually two letters, but a hard z.

It's much better to look at actual manuscripts that write in this style and see what they do. Otherwise you'll end up making all kinds of implausible combinations.

   

If he writes ‘w’ as ‘v’, then that would be one possibility.
Otherwise, I can think of two words.
‘val den’ German ‘fall den’.
Example: ‘im fall den verbren’ if I burn it

I haven't found it in handwriting yet, it's really difficult. But the character (with source) here shows what I meant above: the "t" and the "z" together look like an 8. Now you have to imagine the character as handwriting, written by a hand that has already written an extremely large number of them.

You have to remember that the 8 cannot be a ‘d’; the ‘d’ in this handwriting can be seen in aladaba8. It could also be an ‘s’ (see below), but that is also taken, by ‘as’. And “fix”/ "six" (if the f is written as a long stroke, then it is likely that the ‘s’ is also written as a long stroke). We already have a B. This leaves few possibilities for the 8. 

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PS. 8=s