This thread about 116v is now 116 full pages long.

(11 hours ago)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This thread about 116v is now 116 full pages long.

Strange, for me it's 117. Maybe because deleted posts remain as "stubs" for moderators.

How much the context “charms” changes things, and with the marix morix, suddenly everything seems to make sense, or is it just my imagination?

So this time, much more seriously, and a significantly better version:

With chiton, “chiton domini” would probably refer to the robe of the Lord. That is  entirely plausible in a charm.

The "m" before chiton would then possibly be Mary -> Mary Chiton Domini = an invocation/summoning of Mary and the garment of Christ. Very meaningful as a beginning. Charms often begin with double or multiple invocations.

This is then possibly followed by a magic word (something like abracadabra / speculative, of course), but it fits directly after the invocation – also as an invocation = fusion of Christian symbols and folk magic

The vnnl ?, as I have just seen in an enlargement, can actually also be read as vnd, which makes the “und” = “and” plausible.

That leaves “totz” – what could totz/tots mean? Something like evil or devil? (Potz = God Totz = Devil?) or tots (Genitiv death?)? It is striking that the o is not a normal o. It has two legs pointing downwards. It could therefore also be an upside-down o with two horns – which would be a typical medieval symbol for the devil.

The “n” at the end of the first line is then very likely “in nomini”, typically a letter used as an abbreviation for a spiritual statement.

This results in = totz te tres cerei in nomini.

In other words, the devil should be forced to carry three candles (Trinity) in the name of God. This would be a spell, a ritual submission typical of the time, especially in connection with illnesses.

Consecrated candles are considered sacramental, their light symbolizing Christ, who drives away darkness and demons; in exorcism and protection contexts, candles were explicitly used against demonic powers.

So even without clarifying exactly what totz is, the spell makes sense here as a banishing spell.

(new: The last e of cere has a small dot, which indicates that cerei is meant here).

Fix marix morix vix, with the explanation Mastix / Myrhhe, it might be something like an instruction for action:

Fix from fixus / fixo / figere to fasten, attach, fix. So bind Mastrix and Myrrh (= ointment / poultice)
vix then something like hardly = only slightly.

But the endings in “ix,” i.e., the rhyme, give the whole thing more of a magical incantation of these two healing ingredients. That would also explain why marix and morix were adapted so strongly.
In short: After the devil has been banished, this would be a healing rhyming incantation.

Ave Maria (then pray an Ave Maria).

Two Voynichese words. Based on the words that follow, this could be the name of the disease that needs to be cured! A disease in Voynich would fit perfectly into the context of the VMS.

Because then follow: Valtzen and Verbren = roll/crush and burn. The evil/illness should be rolled around/crushed and burned.

Reading it this way, the word “gas” also becomes clear. The “g” stands, as is typical as a single letter in a charm context (see above), in this case for God (one could even define the horizontal line after/in the g as an abbreviation).

as = “als” in Bavarian, because then it means:

“so nim God als mich” (Bavarian) would be a ritual description and call to the illness! Illness, pass to God instead of me and I am healed.

Overall, that would be a classic charm and now it all makes sense, doesn't it?

   

You're wrong there. It's basically a misinterpretation.
‘so nim (g) as mich o’
Auf deutsch übersetzt in der richtigen Bedeutung.
"so bekommt es mich auch"
Translated into English with the correct meaning.
‘so gets me too’

@ Aga Tentakulus

Ich weiß nicht, wie das im Schweizer Deutsch ist. 

Aber im Bayrischen ist das "als" in der Position wo es hier steht, sehr sicher im Sinne von "anstatt" aufzufassen. Selbst wenn man den Kringel zum Schluss als "o" sehen will, wäre es dann eher ein Ausruf (ich denke aber es ist eher eine Art Schlusszeichen).

Also:  Krankheit nimm (lieber) Gott als mich, oh  (das "lieber" hab ich nur eingefügt, um die Bedeutung des "als" für den moderneren Leser klarer machen)

Wenn du "o"="auch" "so bekommt es mich auch" annehmen willst, hast du das Problem, wie das Wort Gott in den Satz reinnehmen willst. Das passt syntaktisch nicht hinein. Also musst du es unübersetzt lassen. 

Und ansonsten fehlt auch der heilende Aspekt, der eigentlich typisch für charms ist.

Unter der Voraussetzung, dass es ein Charm ist und wenn m = "Maria" und n =  "in noimini" heißt, dann ist das "G" hier höchst wahrscheinlich Gott, auch weil es dann so perfekt in den Satzbau passt.

Das o als omnis zu lesen,wäre noch eine Möglichkeit, aber die glaube ich auch nicht. 

________________

I don't know how it is in Swiss German.
But in Bavarian, the ‘als’ in the position where it appears here is definitely to be understood in the sense of ‘instead of’.

Even if you want to see the squiggle at the end as an ‘o’, it would then be more of an exclamation (but I think it's more of a kind of closing mark).
So:  Illness, take (rather) God than me, oh  (I only added that "rather" to make the meaning of ‘als’ clearer to the modern reader).

If you want to assume "o"="auch" - "so bekommt es mich auch" = ‘so gets me too’, you have the problem of how to fit the word God into the sentence. It doesn't fit syntactically in german. So you have to leave it untranslated.

And apart from that, the healing aspect that is actually typical of charms is also missing.

Assuming that it is a charm and if m = ‘Mary’ and n =  ‘in noimini’, then the ‘G’ here is most likely God, because it fits so perfectly into the sentence structure.

Reading the o as omnis would be another possibility, but I don't believe that either.

Addendum for non-German speakers: in Bavarian, the "als" is very often pronounced as "as". And since in the Middle Ages words were often written as they were pronounced, "as" makes sense here.

Don't know if relevant to VMS, but a while back I found people using stacked dots in code/abbreviation from the first quarter of the 15th century.


"the word “oblates” for wafers in the instructions is coded into stacked dots leaving only “bl” legible."
Item scribe in iij. [4 stacked dots]bl [1 dot ] t[3dots] xps vincit sabaoth In altera xpc regnat agios. In 3cia . xpc imperat saday


Interestingly it is written by someone who on the same page writes out instructions on the "ante portas charm" 

"(1) Petrus stabat ante portas (2) Crux sacra + Crux splendida + Crux salua . . . (3) In monte cebon requiescunt vii dormientes (4) + Hel + Heloy +ya (5) in dextera palmi . . . fac 3es cruces (6) In nomine . . . Christus vincit + christus regnat. (7) In nomine . . . on . + on . + on . invokes holy names. (8) In nomine . . . christus vincit + christus regnat + christus imperat conjures the fevers by types. (9) Cape et diuide in tres et scribe"

Annoyingly it is part of Royal MS 12 B XXV which isn't available online, but it is noted "the MS. has evidently been used, not very intelligently, by the scribe of Sloane MS.282, in which nearly all the articles are copied." ... Sloane MS.282 also isn't available  

Let me add another possible interpretation.

2nd line: + multos (or multas) + re + ceve + portas

gives multas receve portas 

It could be some fake Latin - "receive many gates (of good fortune)"

If it's fake Latin, then why even force it into existing lemmata?

It doesn't say ‘gott’ either.
Bavarian as = Alemannic äs and German es.
In Alemannic, as can also mean ‘to be’, but here it is an es.


Es heisst ja  auch nicht "gott".
bayrisch as = alemannisch äs und deutsch es.
Auch im alemanisch kann as auch als sein, aber hier ist es ein es.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Vaianten "o = auch"
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
o = auch. Turn right and you're already in Vorarlberg = Bavarian dialect.
o = an.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.