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Matching planet labels
- Matching planet labels
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RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 19-10-2023, 06:36 AM
(18-10-2023, 09:24 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Somewhere between 1488 and 1494, this significant development took place. From the article, it appears this could be due to the influences of Wenzel Faber. Could it be that the 'creation and composition' of the VMs is closer to 1500 than it is to 1450??
I've looked through a few more manuscripts online. It appears that there was particular interest in astronomy in the XV-XVI linked to the growing necessity of a calendar reform. A lot of manuscripts seem to discuss basic astronomy and the planets only to delve deeper into the proper ways of mapping day counts to months. There was a growing pressure to put the Easter computed dates, equinoctes and the calendar dates back in order. I haven't found anything of interest so far, but the following chart from _Johannis de Brunswic computus ecclesiasticus. Johannis a Sacrobosco computus ecclesiasticus_, XIV-XV curiously looks visually similar to the element at the center of f67r2 chart. Only there are 6 petals here, and 8 in the Voynich manuscript. Probably one more item to the list of accidental design convergence.
This chart shows Zodiac, month names and days per month. Something is going on between February and June in the upper left quadrant, showing 30 or 31 days for what is probably May? There is a protrusion though the months band in a shape that wouldn't look out of place in the Voynich MS. Interestingly, the outer band separator, that marks this flexible days assignment, is exactly the same as used on a number of charts in the Voynich manuscript, including f67r2 chart. How common was this way of marking parts of a band? Is it possible, that complex marks on the rim of f67r2 chart relate to day computations for different months of the year? Overall, could the Voynich chart also be a calendar chart?
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RE: Matching planet labels
nablator > 19-10-2023, 08:19 AM
(19-10-2023, 05:50 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would like to include a reference to your cipher idea in my next text, that will discuss certain structural properties of the Voynich manuscript text in the context of one-to-many ciphers. Which link should I list as the primary source?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. will have to do because I don't have a thread for it. -
RE: Matching planet labels
ReneZ > 19-10-2023, 08:29 AM
It is correct that astronomy started to progress in the second half of the 15th century, including the work of Regiomontanus and the interest in the calendar. Even greater advance was made after Copernicus, in the next two centuries.
However, the diagrams in the Voynich MS show nothing that resembles these two advances. That also fits with its dating in the earlier decades of the 15th century. The 6-fold and 12-fold (and several other) circle divisions relate to much earlier times, even as many of them have not yet found good parallels in other manuscripts. -
RE: Matching planet labels
pfeaster > 19-10-2023, 08:58 AM
(19-10-2023, 08:19 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(19-10-2023, 05:50 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would like to include a reference to your cipher idea in my next text, that will discuss certain structural properties of the Voynich manuscript text in the context of one-to-many ciphers. Which link should I list as the primary source?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. will have to do because I don't have a thread for it.
In case it's of any use, here's a link to another "path" cipher seeking to mimic Voynichese:
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This "checkerboard" cipher has similarities to Nablator's path cipher, but also some differences. I haven't brought it up here until now because I think there are a couple other imaginative models that could match the patterning of Voynichese more closely (a cumulative cipher + syllable-by-syllable encoding, with each "word" being a syllable). But I did come up with a use for opening gallows glyphs and such that made some sense, and this other example might help you scope out the range of variation this sort of approach could have had. -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 19-10-2023, 09:26 AM
(19-10-2023, 08:29 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is correct that astronomy started to progress in the second half of the 15th century, including the work of Regiomontanus and the interest in the calendar. Even greater advance was made after Copernicus, in the next two centuries.
However, the diagrams in the Voynich MS show nothing that resembles these two advances. That also fits with its dating in the earlier decades of the 15th century. The 6-fold and 12-fold (and several other) circle divisions relate to much earlier times, even as many of them have not yet found good parallels in other manuscripts.
I suppose in most cases interest gets there first and the progress comes afterwards. What I noticed in XIV-XV century manuscripts is a constant stream of tweaks and adjustments to the same charts, as if looking for some new models or explanations by trial and error. There are no obvious breakthroughs, but a lot of shuffling things around. Not unlike in the present day Voynich manuscript research in a certain sense
But overall these charts, like the one I attached to my previous post, are in the same ballpark of sophistication as the Voynich charts. Only the Voynich charts are way more artsy, by the feel of it. I won't be surprised if the Voynich manuscript itself is a piece of fiction. Doesn't look to me like a scientific notebook of the period. -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 19-10-2023, 09:40 AM
(19-10-2023, 08:58 AM)pfeaster Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In case it's of any use, here's a link to another "path" cipher seeking to mimic Voynichese:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This "checkerboard" cipher has similarities to Nablator's path cipher, but also some differences. I haven't brought it up here until now because I think there are a couple other imaginative models that could match the patterning of Voynichese more closely (a cumulative cipher + syllable-by-syllable encoding, with each "word" being a syllable). But I did come up with a use for opening gallows glyphs and such that made some sense, and this other example might help you scope out the range of variation this sort of approach could have had.
Thank you! My plan is to investigate the whole set of one-to-many character based additive ciphers. That is, ciphers that share two properties:
1) plaintext characters are encoded to the ciphertext one by one or in very small groups, sequentially
2) when two encodings starting from a certain break point (e.g., paragraph or page start) have some common prefix, this corresponds to a common prefix (could be empty) in the plaintext, the reverse is not necessarily true
I'm not sure whether it's possible to get any definite results wrt the applicability of these ciphers to VMS by studying the statistical properties of prefixes of paragraphs and isolated labels, but I want to give it a try. -
RE: Matching planet labels
nablator > 19-10-2023, 09:43 AM
(19-10-2023, 06:36 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is a protrusion though the months band in a shape that wouldn't look out of place in the Voynich MS.
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Manuscript: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I have seen this separator before, maybe on JKP's blog, but why is it placed between Aries and Taurus? Usually is is between Aries and Pisces (a cross).
There is a central "flower" with 8 petals on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. : no idea if 8 (as in the VMs) has any meaning. 8 directions/winds maybe?
The labels that you marked "?" are months. It is a common months-zodiac sign diagram. -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 19-10-2023, 10:01 AM
(19-10-2023, 09:43 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have seen this separator before, maybe on JKP's blog, but why is it placed between Aries and Taurus? Usually is is between Aries and Pisces (a cross).
Yes, there is something weird happening here between March and May, looks like the author suggests flexible days for May?
Quote:There is a central "flower" with 8 petals on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. : no idea if 8 (as in the VMs) has any meaning.
The labels that you marked "?" are months. It is a common months-zodiac sign diagram.
What is written inside the protruding element? Looks like 3 or 4 characters, maybe a number. -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 19-10-2023, 10:26 AM
Looks like it's just a sloppy design. One month didn't fit into the chart. To me it looks as if the chart goes February-April-May-June and then there is an insert between April and May with 30 days. Either that or I misread March as April. -
RE: Matching planet labels
nablator > 19-10-2023, 10:59 AM
(19-10-2023, 10:26 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Looks like it's just a sloppy design. One month didn't fit into the chart. To me it looks as if the chart goes February-April-May-June and then there is an insert between April and May with 30 days. Either that or I misread March as April.
Ianua(ri)us, Feb(ru)arius, M(a)rcius, then they inserted April with a small ap' then Maius, Iunius, Iulius.