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Matching planet labels
- Matching planet labels
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RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 19-10-2023, 11:15 AM
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RE: Matching planet labels
nablator > 19-10-2023, 12:10 PM
(19-10-2023, 09:40 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.2) when two encodings starting from a certain break point (e.g., paragraph or page start) have some common prefix, this corresponds to a common prefix (could be empty) in the plaintext, the reverse is not necessarily true
I experimented with reset points at k/t gallows (that often seem to be filling the space between words as if it didn't matter if they belong to the word on the left or the word on the right) instead of (only) at the start of paragraph or line or label, got excited when in some instances the xy alternation seemed in sync with disruptions (xx or yy) only at the k/t gallows, but there can be no evidence if some k/t gallows were inserted, to help deciphering, even when there is no de-synchronization.
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In this variant k/t gallows would be synchronization marks, not coordinates, and p/f would be ignored (nulls). This would solve the problems of the weird p/f distribution (they are mostly found on the first line of paragraphs) and the weird k/t distribution (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). -
RE: Matching planet labels
ReneZ > 19-10-2023, 12:23 PM
This separator is a completely standard 'ornamental' element in manuscripts of the time, and, if nothing else, shows us that the Voynich MS does include completely standard elements (this one being a detail). The manuscript, while odd or unusual, is not out of the context of its time.
This particular aspect was illlustrated in Ellie Velinska's blog, if I am not mistaken. -
RE: Matching planet labels
R. Sale > 19-10-2023, 08:02 PM
As I recall as well, it was Ellie's blog, but it was another contributor, who had made notice of the pattern and was asking 'what's up with these little rectangular designs?' It has since been recognized that they are one of a growing set of -dare I call them 'subliminal' - cultural connections. It's strange - in a way- that these cultural ties are sort of there for the taking. But they can only be taken if they are recognized in their connection to valid medieval data. In those early French paintings, where the background is just a pattern, this little four-petaled flower, if you will, is one of a set of repeating motifs used to fill in the space. It is also used in borders, and is found, with variations in various circular VMs diagrams. While the pattern appears as a simple 'space filler', it's use in the various bands of written text, from the cosmos to the central rosette, also shows that the pattern has the potential to designate text segments.
Does the VMs make use of that potential? Would a pair of historical, medieval popes be convincing?
It seems to me that the 'Leipzig cosmos' situation presents an interesting challenge to VMs chronology. Between the 1488 and the 1494 examples of cosmic illustrations printed by Landsberg, there is a rapid and extensive transformation in the comparative cosmic representations. The difference is remarkable. Regarding the introduction of astrological content, the difference is from zero to hero - on steroids. In the 1494 example, the linguistic presentation has been retained. The zodiac ring has been installed in its proper place. In addition, not only are the seven planets represented by their astrological signs, they have even been placed in their relevant astrological houses, such that they correspond to the 4-1-1-1 pattern. If the VMs connection is valid, what does that do to VMs chronology? Does the unique structure of the Leipzig cosmos originate as late as c. 1490?
As wise men have said: "Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?" -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 20-10-2023, 01:01 AM
(19-10-2023, 12:23 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This separator is a completely standard 'ornamental' element in manuscripts of the time, and, if nothing else, shows us that the Voynich MS does include completely standard elements (this one being a detail). The manuscript, while odd or unusual, is not out of the context of its time.
This particular aspect was illlustrated in Ellie Velinska's blog, if I am not mistaken.
Even purely ornamental in general, it still could have some significance in a certain context. E.g., squares and triangles are ornamental, until they appear on a music player, where they are immediately recognized as "stop" and "play".
I haven't yet encountered this sign many enough times in the wild of medieval manuscripts to come to any personal conclusion, but the first idea I'd like to check: in this particular text there is a self-eating snake chart just a few pages apart from the year chart. By the look of it, could this symbol be the mouth of Ouroboros? It would be logical to put it exactly at the point where the cycle moves over to a new year, but given the overall sloppiness of this particular chart it's not far off. In any case, this four-toothed symbol visually could pass for the mouth of some time-eating entity. I'd keep an eye out for it in other charts.
A more mundane explanation would be some kind of fastener that connects segments of a wheel. But I couldn't find any images of medieval wheels with fasteners that would look like this one.
Full res: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Matching planet labels
ReneZ > 20-10-2023, 02:11 AM
(20-10-2023, 01:01 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even purely ornamental in general, it still could have some significance in a certain context.
Undoubtedly they can have a function. I even think that it is more than likely that they mark a start or a break in the text. Looking at the rosettes page (f85v+f86r), one can see that most if not all circles have at least one marker of this or a similar style. At least the central circle has two.
Many other circles in the MS just have a simple line that appears to mark a start or break.
Edit:
this should be Ellie Velinska's page in archive.org:
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RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 20-10-2023, 03:28 AM
(20-10-2023, 02:11 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.this should be Ellie Velinska's page in archive.org:
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Thank you! If this is a cross/nail marks, as suggested in the comments in the blog, and it's positioned on a year wheel, the first obvious position is the Easter date, I think. First Sunday after the first full moon following the spring equinox, if I understand correctly. If the true equinox of the XV century was used (I think it would be ~March 12), then the Easter could be up to April 14th (27 + 6 days, the worst case scenario of equinox happening immediately after the full moon and then the next full moon landing on Monday). If the calendar equinox of March 21 was used, mid April is even more likely.
Given that the topic of the manuscript is ecclesiastic computations, this symbol meaning the Easter is very plausible.
(edit: Just to be clear, I'm not referring to the Voynich manuscript here. I have no idea wrt the meaning of this symbol in VMS.) -
RE: Matching planet labels
Aga Tentakulus > 20-10-2023, 09:00 AM
I was just wondering if the worm on the right in the picture has anything in common with the Greek one.
The resemblance is striking.
The book was open on this side in the film "In the Name of the Rose, with Sean Connery". -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 20-10-2023, 10:22 AM
(20-10-2023, 09:00 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was just wondering if the worm on the right in the picture has anything in common with the Greek one.
The resemblance is striking.
The book was open on this side in the film "In the Name of the Rose, with Sean Connery".
I suppose it's the same symbol, snake or dragon eating its tail is a very common Western metaphor for the circle of creation and destruction. Wiki says it's of Egyptian origin: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Matching planet labels
Koen G > 20-10-2023, 02:04 PM
I think in many if not all of Velinska's examples, the four ticks in a square are just a quick and easy way to make a quatrefoil in the negative space. This might also be the case in the VM, though the ticks are more like little circles and the supposed quatrefoil is wonky.
Apart from that, as Rene says, I think we are looking at not much more than a decorative feature. I think the origin may be that they envisaged some kind of physical ring that's closed, like a bracelet or metalwork or some other kind of craft. The consequence would indeed be that if the ring has a start and end, it will be at this point.
then Maius, Iunius, Iulius.