• Options
• Login
• Desktop Style

Italian cloudbands

• Index

  • The Voynich Ninja
  • Voynich Research
  • Imagery
  • Italian cloudbands
• Italian cloudbands

• Italian cloudbands

  R. Sale > 02-10-2023, 07:52 PM

  Investigations of historical use of the illustrated cloudband (Wolkenband) as an artistic element have opened new aspects in VMs research, and the VMs examples in particular either use or are based on the pattern of a nebuly line.
  
  Italy is a location favored by various investigators as a probable place of origin for the VMs.
  
  What is the evidence for cloudbands in Italian art? Here is a small sample of illustrated sources and there is *nothing* line a nebuly line among them. Meanwhile there is evidence of another interesting 'cosmic boundary' phenomenon, which would be the "golden rays" version. Also showing the 'plain line' version of a cosmic boundary, where the comparable Harley 334 is also a later example.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Are there Italian examples of cosmic boundaries that use a nebuly line pattern before 1450?

• RE: Italian cloudbands

  Koen G > 02-10-2023, 08:01 PM

  I must say I never paid attention to the geographical distribution of the motif before. A map of where people drew cloud bands before 1450 would be interesting if overlaid with our swallowtail merlon map.

• RE: Italian cloudbands

  R. Sale > 02-10-2023, 09:33 PM

  Use the Manuscript Miniatures site to search for wolkenband. That gives everything. Then limit dates and locations.
  
  Various approaches and attempts at some more-or-less nebuly line patterns are found before 1400, England, France, Germany, but not Italy. After 1400 Pizan is dominant till c. 1415. So, Paris is a connection with the cosmic illustrations. After that, it's Munich, Alsace, and Hagenau, and a possible Lauber connection.

• RE: Italian cloudbands

  nablator > 03-10-2023, 12:00 AM

  JKP mentioned the late 14th century sketchbook of Giovannino de Grassi... but it's the scalloped variant.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Between it and De Sphaera (post-1450) I am sure there are more examples to be found.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Italian cloudbands

  MarcoP > 03-10-2023, 08:19 AM

  Illustrations by De Predis in De Sphaera derive from the Northern "children of the planets" tradition, possibly through the 1430 ca engravings made in Basel discussed by Dieter Blume. E.g. Luna has the Northern crayfish instead of the crab typical of classical and Italian zodiacs.
  
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Italian cloudbands

  MarcoP > 03-10-2023, 08:08 PM

  A few sources that were previously mentioned on Voynich.ninja:
  
  

  • You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1380-1428), Milan, De Grassi Workshop.
    
  • Ceres from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Northern Italy, maybe Verona, 1400 ca You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. "Didascalie" tab).
    
  • You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Bembo workshop, Milan, 1445 ca.
    

• RE: Italian cloudbands

  R. Sale > 03-10-2023, 10:19 PM

  So, Milan was a definite hot spot for some fancy cloudbands, both during the C-14 dates and in the decades prior. The De Grassi illustration with the eagles was even done in two colors. It is also an example that not all cloudbands were used as cosmic boundaries. Sometimes cloudbands were just representations of clouds.
  
  There is the question of origins for this motif: singular or multiple, where and when? There are several French and English examples that were fairly early.
  
  Close:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  A simple version:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Almost:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Here's a fancy one:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Gian Galeazzo Visconti was first married to Isabella of Valois. She was the sister of Jean, Duke of Berry, and Phillip the Bold, Duke of Burgundy, etc. Her biography says she "brought her collection of French books to Milan."
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Is it possible that she introduced the nebuly line version of the cloudband to the artists of Milan?
  
  Secondly, while the VMs does have several examples of fancy, scalloped nebuly line patterns, it also makes much use of the simple, heraldic version of the nebuly line. The VMs cosmos was drawn with a simple nebuly line. Simple nebuly lines are rather uncommon in medieval representations of cosmic boundaries, but one example is the Berry Apocalypse.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Another book in the Berry library was BNF Fr. 565 - the 'Oresme' cosmos.

• RE: Italian cloudbands

  R. Sale > 07-10-2023, 10:51 PM

  While no longer directly relevant to VMs investigation, it would still be interesting to see more early examples of how the 'cosmic boundary / divine manifestation' situation was represented by Italian artists before De Grassi. 
  
  The Valois-Visconti marriage was 1360. Is the nebuly-line based cloud band a French introduction to Milan, or was it already present from other sources? 
  
  Four Italian sources before 1360: Nothing nebuly.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
• Next Oldest Next Newest