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Can we make isoglosses?
- Can we make isoglosses?
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RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Koen G > 09-05-2023, 03:32 PM
(09-05-2023, 02:37 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This might be just erroneous transcription, after all.
True, we are dealing with an additional level of uncertainty. Still, there must have been something in the 14thC text that resulted in a "gaismich" transcription. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Bernd > 09-05-2023, 03:35 PM
Excellent find, Koen!
"vaschang huenr" are as Anton said without doubt Faschingshühner.
Chickens which had to be paid as dues at the end of Carnival season before fasting began on Ash Wednesday.
Herbsthühner were paid at Martini (Nov. 11), the beginning of Carnival season and an important legal day as it marked the end of the agricultural year. I assume these chickens were raised in a way they were at optimal age and condition to be eaten in the season of due payment, hence it was distinguished between the spring and autum version.
I'm still as clueless about gaismich as anyone else but it is certainly an attribute of those geese. Something like breed, sex or age, or a season / holiday. Male gese are nowadays called Ganter, Ganterich, or Gänserich, the chicks are called Gänsel or Gössel. I do not believe anyone cared about color. It could be a transcription error and even if it has to come from somewhere. The next familiar word would be gaistlich -> geistlich -> clerical. But geese for the clergy seems a bit of a stretch as is a mistranslation of "tl" to "m". Or gaiserich for male goose. I couldn't find an example for that either.
Geese were usually paid and eaten at Martini (Nov11), the still very popular Martinigansln.
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RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Anton > 09-05-2023, 04:09 PM
(09-05-2023, 03:32 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.True, we are dealing with an additional level of uncertainty. Still, there must have been something in the 14thC text that resulted in a "gaismich" transcription.
I checked other occurrences of "gens" in this collection of documents and the only find with attribute was "gemast gens" which is, I guess, "fat" or "well-fed" geese.
Apparently this "gaismich", whatever it means, serves as attribute here. Which would be problematic for f116v, unless the phrase was cut in the middle. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Koen G > 09-05-2023, 04:16 PM
I have some more clues, but will need to rely on our German speakers to put them together. There is a similar book that transcribes documents from a different, nearby Kloster (St. Pölten). One of the corrigenda refers to the phrase "gaismich Gens" in our current book (Herzogenburg):
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This corrigendum seems to suggest that in the light of the phrase "gaismich Gens" in the Herzogenburg book, the note on p. 400 of the St.Pölten book is incorrect.
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So in other words (and that is, if I am understanding everything correctly), the author considers "gaismich Gens" in the Herzogenburg book a good transcription, and uses it to correct an erroneous footnote in the St. Pölten book. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Juan_Sali > 09-05-2023, 04:56 PM
(09-05-2023, 10:40 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For me.
Scribal mistakes involving g and tz and a sample or word starting with gas:
Normal "tz" and normal "g".
He wanted to write "t", corrected it with a "z".
The whole sentence is correct.
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f14r, f25r, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Bernd > 09-05-2023, 05:39 PM
@Koen
I don't quite get it but it's interesting.
The St. Pölten document speaks of "Gaisiunge gans" which according to the footnote is supposed to mean the dish Gansjunges / Gänseklein which is giblets.
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I disagree, how can a serving of giblets count as yearly tax? It was paid with live poultry or eggs, stuff with high shelf-life but obviously not with fast-spoiling innards. Or it means an inferior goose only suitable for giblets? I think it simply means young goose and the scribe made a mistake. The actual translation of "Gaisjunge" would be goat boy / goat herder which makes no sense either. In any case it shows transcription mistakes or ambiguities are common.
But the Herzogenburg document has "gaismich" which brings us the additional "mich". Even if we translate "gais" as geese which is possible in certain dialects, the "mich" it doesn't make sense at all. So I do not understand why the St. Pölten footnote is considered obsolete just because "gais" is also found in the Herzogenburg document. Unfortunately it tells us nothing about why they considered "gaismich" valid and what it is supposed to mean.
@Anton
gemast gens = gemästete Gänse = fattened geese -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Anton > 09-05-2023, 06:01 PM
Supposing "gaismich" is a transcription error, one can attack it from the inside. The error in this case would most probably be consequential to incorrect interpretation of minims. "mi" consists of four minims: IIII.
Some possible readings of those would be "nu", "un", "ini", "rin" and so on. One can try this brute force approach to see if anything valid yields. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Helmut Winkler > 09-05-2023, 06:02 PM
(09-05-2023, 04:16 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have some more clues, but will need to rely on our German speakers to put them together. There is a similar book that transcribes documents from a different, nearby Kloster (St. Pölten). One of the corrigenda refers to the phrase "gaismich Gens" in our current book (Herzogenburg):
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This corrigendum seems to suggest that in the light of the phrase "gaismich Gens" in the Herzogenburg book, the note on p. 400 of the St.Pölten book is incorrect.
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So in other words (and that is, if I am understandin,i my part of the country young geese werefedwith bakers cheese mixed with g everything correctly), the author considers "gaismich Gens" in the Herzogenburg book a good transcription, and uses it to correct an erroneous footnote in the St. Pölten book.
Urkunde im Urkundenbuch Herzogenburg
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I suspect that the gaismich refers to the feeding of thr geese, 'fed with gaismich', in my part of the country young geese were fed wiith quark (the kind you use for Käsekuchen) mixed with greenery. gaismich gens would be Ziegenmilhgänse -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Koen G > 09-05-2023, 07:08 PM
(09-05-2023, 06:02 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I suspect that the gaismich refers to the feeding of thr geese, 'fed with gaismich', in my part of the country young geese were fed wiith quark (the kind you use for Käsekuchen) mixed with greenery. gaismich gens would be Ziegenmilhgänse
That sounds plausible. In Dutch we also say for example "grasscow" vs. "graincow" depending on if the cow ate grass exclusively or not.
Since the same gaismich is referenced in not one but two books, I would lean towards it being a correct transcription. In this case, we would have an attestation very close to the proposed reading of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. word. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Helmut Winkler > 09-05-2023, 07:16 PM
I am not sure if I understtand the problem, gaismich goose seems to be the term for a very young goose fed on milk, like milk lamb is the term for a very young lamb fed on milk only.The Anmerkung about gansjung, the dis is reracted. The Herzogenburg UB shows a better explanation, it is the editors choice.