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Can we make isoglosses?
- Can we make isoglosses?
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RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Aga Tentakulus > 04-05-2023, 02:56 PM
Now we have so many language cards.
Where would one place the Romansh on the cards, assuming that the other text of 116 is indeed Romansh ? Without even looking at the battlements. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Aga Tentakulus > 04-05-2023, 03:48 PM
It is a pity that there is no second "g" for comparison.
Wasn't there a "g" for yellow or green in one of the plants, or am I already having halucinations? -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Bernd > 04-05-2023, 04:41 PM
I had relatives in both northernmost Austria and south Carithia who would use 'gas' for goat. I do not think it's particularly unusual. But I've never heard about 'Mich' for milk, only Mülch or Müüch.
Still I think the area between South Tyrol and Carinthia is a good lead for the VM.
Note that Carinthia and especially the south around Arnoldstein faced great hardships in the 14th and 15th century. The region was devastated by locust swarms and severe cold in in 1338/40, an extremely heavy earthquake in 1348 and the plague of 1349. It must have been apocalyptic for the people living there and it took until around 1400 to somewhat rebuild the area. Population still dwindled and the Benedictine monastery of Arnoldstein was basically bankrupt and could not properly look after its dioceses for most of the 15th and 16th century. There was also a witch-trial in 1465 which apparently was related to the monastery's financial troubles but I haven't found more. On top of that the Turks invaded Carinthia several times between 1473 and 1483 destroying many settlements including the village of Arnoldstein though the monastery apparently was spared, maybe exactly because there was nothing of value there. There also was a peasant revolt in 1478 due to high taxes and the inability of nobles to protect the peasants againt the Turks.
All in all extremely hard times. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Emma May Smith > 04-05-2023, 05:25 PM
(04-05-2023, 12:15 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I asked around on Reddit, and someone answered with this very useful map. The pink/purple marks are areas where the /l/ in "Milch" assimilates with the preceding vowel.
Also this map from the Bavarian Speech Atlas which makes it clear that, at least in modern German, realisations without a liquid were common even in big cities. This map shows Upper Bavaria only, but also has commentary (in German) about the different realisations:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(Let me know if the image isn't accessible. If somebody wants to post it here, be my guest, but it wouldn't work for me.) -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Bernd > 04-05-2023, 10:24 PM
I've attached the image but it is huge. Isn't there an option to show attachments as thumbnails of reasonable size?
In the Munich area the versions without liquid I'm familiar with are [mûiX] / [müX] as stated in the text, [müX] is also very common in large parts of Austria. But I cannot imagine anyone writing this as 'mich'. It just sounds wrong but I am far from an expert on this topic. Still I would like to see ~15th century examples of 'mich' for milk, or generally how milk is spelled in recipes.
@Aga Tentaculus
Isn't the 'g' is found in the green leaf of f1v? -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Juan_Sali > 05-05-2023, 11:29 AM
(03-05-2023, 03:04 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What is a smallpox liver supposed to be, and what does he want with it.
If it is pox leber umor poti it may have some sense ( latin umor = humour, poti = to obtain) but I dont know if the final letter of the third word can be read as r instead of an n. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
aStobbart > 05-05-2023, 11:55 AM
(05-05-2023, 11:29 AM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(03-05-2023, 03:04 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What is a smallpox liver supposed to be, and what does he want with it.
If it is pox leber umor poti it may have some sense ( latin umor = humour, poti = to obtain) but I dont know if the final letter of the third word can be read as r instead of an n.
Someone else in a different topic read the last word as mutatet
So, pox leber umor mutatet (mutuatus?)
The problem is, the m in the last word looks different than the m in the prevous word -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Helmut Winkler > 05-05-2023, 12:57 PM
!) I have posted this before,on the 116v page, it is
pox leber primum putrefacit
2) The mich problem has been discussed ad infinitum as well and in my opinion the most likely solution is a scribal mistake, mich instead of milch -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Koen G > 05-05-2023, 01:46 PM
(05-05-2023, 12:57 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have posted this before
2) The mich problem has been discussed ad infinitum as well
I am trying to ask a new question, which is: do the proposed dialectical properties belong to the same area? For you this might be obvious since you live in a German-speaking area, but it isn't for everybody and, to my knowledge, has not yet been demonstrated.
Summary of the investigation so far:
* Gas (or "gaas") for goat is typical for modern-day Austria, more specifically towards the east and south.
* Mich instead of Milch: you say "this is just a scribal mistake", but we could make it more interesting by adding that there may have been an assimilation going on between the "l" and the preceding vowel. This would explain why this "mistake" was made in the first place, and add a lot more weight to our argument. So far it does seem like the loss of "l" always affects the preceding vowel, so the form "mich" is still unlikely to appear. But knowing that something was going on with the "l", again in Austria, make it so much more convincing.
* Pox instead of Box: if I understand correctly, a certain "confusion" between P and B happens/happened in much of the German-speaking world.
If all of the above is correct, this means that we no longer have to say "Gas is goat, just take my word for it", "Mich is actually Milch, he just made a random mistake, just let me add a letter", "pox is actually bocks, just believe me". Instead, we can point to a linguistic area where these three things actually make sense.
Knowing this area can help us pinpoint specific sources to focus on (e.g. skimming digitized cookbooks from certain regions). Knowing the specific dialect can also help us to assess the other words better, and build a stronger, more substantiated case for a specific reading.
Or we could just keep saying "it is like this", and then complain that we have to repeat this ad infinitum.