- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
Can we make isoglosses?
- Can we make isoglosses?
-
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Koen G > 04-05-2023, 09:00 AM
(04-05-2023, 07:44 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Not to mention that the goat milk fits rather well with the billy goat liver.
This is why it would be interesting to get some more clarity about the area of these dialectical features. So far I've noticed:
* bock -> pock: devoicing /b/ to /p/ seems like the most common of the three. For example I remember Diebold Lauber (Alsace) using "Diebold" and "Diepold" interchangably. And "pock" for "bock" is not hard to find. Here is one example I found in a few minutes on google, the poetry of Oswald Von Wolkenstein (South Tyrol): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
* Geis -> Gas: This is more difficult, but it certainly exists. All examples I can find in a quick search are 1800 or later, all from Austria. "Gas" seems to belong to a more limited area than "pock", but I don't know yet if and where they overlap.
* Milch -> Mich: we don't even know if this really exists as a dialectical form. If it doesn't, the "goatmilk" reading can only survive by assuming "mich" is either an abbreviation or a mistake. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Koen G > 04-05-2023, 09:09 AM
(04-05-2023, 08:35 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Of course, a pre-requisite to access studies in the field is a good knowledge of German: I certainly don't qualify
This is also a big problem for me. Studies of German dialects are understandably written in German. I have never studied German, and the understanding I have trough Dutch only goes so far...
There should really exist a linguistic description of the ei->a shift that gave us Gas instead of Geiss. Finding this in the literature would help us a lot. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Koen G > 04-05-2023, 09:22 AM
If the MHDBDB's indexing is correct, it does not contain any text in the relevant dialects that contain our specific keywords.
* None of the words for "Geiz" are monophthongized: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
* None of the words for "Milch" drop the "l": You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Aga Tentakulus > 04-05-2023, 09:22 AM
@Rene
That is exactly the point. You let your liver and your image influence you too much.
If it were real German, wouldn't it have to say "so nim auch Ziegenmilch"? So "o" is (also) in the wrong place.
And "gasmich" is so wrong.
Ergo, where did he get that from? Does an exact place of origin apply here?
I could still understand "Gäs" as a goat, but not with "mich" again. And what about "valden obren"? I think it belongs to the sentence. Action-reaction.
In the end, it doesn't really matter. The important thing is that it's German.
That means our work with the origin of the battlements with the Upper German language map.
@Marco
Indeed " Geissmich" as goat's milk. But surely a spelling mistake since corrected later. Thanks for the example.
Next:
So bim3w suggested "mulier".
In fact, I could also find it in Tyrol, South Tyrol.
Applied to woman-wife.
But this makes no sense as an application to the plant on f17.
The correct application would be "mother of all" and not "wife of all".
Now I am looking for where (region) could "mulier" also be used as mother. I think there is a possibility to find out more about the origin. I'm working on that right now. Dictionary, zero chance. I have to go through all the regions one by one. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
ReneZ > 04-05-2023, 10:51 AM
(04-05-2023, 09:22 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If it were real German, wouldn't it have to say "so nim auch Ziegenmilch"? So "o" is (also) in the wrong place.
I think it is risky to put too much meaning in the loose "o" at the end.
I think Panofsky suggested it could be the start of "oder" which would not be problematic at all.
But it can be so many other things. Or nothing at all. Or the initial of the scribe (Otto). -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Aga Tentakulus > 04-05-2023, 11:13 AM
Hmmm.
Actually, you're right, the "o" could be many things. But in connection it has a meaning.
The "o" is typically Bavarian, it stands for "auch" and it is in the right place, and it fits the context and sentence if it is not a "g" but a "z".
Now it's a bit more important.
So look for "so nim-z as mich o" (is also Bavarian).
We write "so nim-tz äs mich au" (Alemannic).
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Aga Tentakulus > 04-05-2023, 11:42 AM
Where my research has taken me.
If I follow all the clues that can be traced, I will end up in an area.
I also have to say that it can't get any worse.
The coordinates are in the picture.
If I assume that a mountain range forms a language border (like the Gotthard example), then this mountain range also forms one. The language distribution took place via the valleys and rivers.
Exactly at these coordinates there is a breakthrough.
Here above in green Southern Bavarian, blue Italian, yellow Slavic and brown general Romance dialects.
If the place of origin is indeed in this environment, then we have more than an ass on our hands as far as the translation of the VM text is concerned. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Koen G > 04-05-2023, 12:15 PM
I asked around on Reddit, and someone answered with this very useful map. The pink/purple marks are areas where the /l/ in "Milch" assimilates with the preceding vowel.
-
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
ReneZ > 04-05-2023, 02:09 PM
(04-05-2023, 11:42 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Where my research has taken me.
Ah, I've been there :-)
If I follow all the clues that can be traced, I will end up in an area.
I also have to say that it can't get any worse.
The coordinates are in the picture.
If I assume that a mountain range forms a language border (like the Gotthard example), then this mountain range also forms one. The language distribution took place via the valleys and rivers.
Exactly at these coordinates there is a breakthrough.
Here above in green Southern Bavarian, blue Italian, yellow Slavic and brown general Romance dialects.
If the place of origin is indeed in this environment, then we have more than an ass on our hands as far as the translation of the VM text is concerned.
For what it's worth, it fits with the pink circles in Koen's map.
BTW, I think you meant ace, not ass... -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Aga Tentakulus > 04-05-2023, 02:46 PM
I already meant the one card. Similarly black Peter and not the ace of trumps.
Never mind.
What if in fact all 3 main languages are represented in one dialect, and that forms the basis of the encoded VM text?
Not much written comparative material there. Already have, or still looking for it.
The Dolomitic dialects are the best available.