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Can we make isoglosses?

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• Can we make isoglosses?

• RE: Can we make isoglosses?

  Anton > 11-05-2023, 02:58 PM

  (10-05-2023, 06:49 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.vnd ein Gans fuer funf phennig an sand Michels tag. vnd ze Pfingsten nevn Ches.
  and a goose for 5 pfennige at St. Michael's day (Sep 29) and at Pentecost 9 cheese
  
  vnd ain gans an sand Merten tag oder funf phennig vnd ze Phingsten sechz chaes
  and a goose at St Martin's day (Nov. 11) or 5 pfennige and at Pentecost 5 cheese

  
  I just read that goose is a traditional meal for St Martin's day, and it is called "Martinsgans".

• RE: Can we make isoglosses?

  nablator > 11-05-2023, 03:57 PM

  (11-05-2023, 06:30 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A find on the possibility "valden" (walden).

  It looks like the same "er" abbreviation as before: could it be "werden"?

• RE: Can we make isoglosses?

  Bernd > 11-05-2023, 04:08 PM

  (09-05-2023, 03:35 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Geese were usually paid and eaten at Martini (Nov11), the still very popular Martinigansln.
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  Another hypothesis about gais-something geese: animal tithes were often named after a sort of tax.
  Rauchhuhn - smoke chicken - chicken as tax for a fireplace.
  

  Quote:Je nach der Jahreszeit der Fälligkeit und dem Zweck sind auch die Bezeichnungen Fastnachtshuhn, Feuerstätthuhn, Haushuhn, Herdhuhn, Hofstatthuhn, Kindbetthuhn, Rauchfall, Rauchhahn verwendet worden.[url=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rauchhuhn#cite_note-3][/url]

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  One more thing to clarify about the 'gaismich' document.
  As far as I understood the contract is about a property transfer between nobles, not the farmers actually working on the property. It's like selling an apartment that is rented to a tenant to somebody else.
  
  The nobleman Leo von Franzhausen as landowner sells several farms to the nobleman Johann von Wildungsmauer. So my mistake, this was not land owned by the monastery as it was often the case in Austria, it was owned by these nobles who then received the tithes. The peasants working on said properties under a lease agreement are also listed in the contract as well as the tithes these peasants have to pay to the landowner. These farmers often did not own the animals either they were "Bestandsvieh" - rental livestock - which also cost a rental fee. Same for additional personnel like a goatherder.
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  In this context it is very plausible that "Gaisiunge gans" indeed is an additional goose to be paid to the landowner for the goatherder boy which is an employee of the landowner and working for the farmer who runs the farm under a lease agreement and as such has to pay tithes to the land owner. Not only for the property but also for additional services. Quite complicated. To make things worse, rights to tithe coule be bought and sold independently from the property. So it was possible that parts of thee tithe were to be paid to person X and parts to person Y. But I think it is highly unlikely that "gaismich" is a name or title for it is not capitalized.
  
  
  So still no idea what a "gaismich" could be.  gais- is probably goat but I cannot think about anything for -mich, it's not a suffix that makes sense. A tithe or rental fee related to goatkeeping? Four geese was a substantial payment for a tax.

• RE: Can we make isoglosses?

  Aga Tentakulus > 11-05-2023, 04:23 PM

  @Nablator
  Yes, "werden" would also work, but there would have to be an "ez" after "la" again. "la ez warten". With "walten" it needs no additional "ez".
  It would not be correct German, but it would work.
  "werden, warten, walten" has about the same meaning here.

• RE: Can we make isoglosses?

  Anton > 11-05-2023, 04:30 PM

  Another idea is that gais- in gaismich can be derivative from "goat" and is used figuratively. For example when we say "dogs ears" in relation to a book, we don't mean actual dogs.
  
  Maybe part of a plant's name, or something like that.
  
  For "mich", I also thought of short for "michel" as "very", "large", or "superiour" (see Lexer) or maybe contraction form of "mi**ch" (like milich (milk) or minich (monk)), but that brings us to the old problem of such stuff not having been attested elsewhere.
  
  Also, as Koen said above, Mich is short for Michel or Michael, and is mentioned in Idiotikon in such capacity.

• RE: Can we make isoglosses?

  Anton > 11-05-2023, 04:39 PM

  "michel" is sometimes part of plant names too.
  
  For example, "gartenmichel" is Nigella sativa, while "jagemichel" is Hypericum perforatum, according to Pritzel.

• RE: Can we make isoglosses?

  Aga Tentakulus > 11-05-2023, 04:54 PM

  If it were a name "Ziegenmichel" so there should be an "l". "gasmichel" as in the song "Holzmichl". ( lebt den dr alte Holzmichl noch, holzmichl noch......)
  
  So as an example "Ziegenpeter" is also a disease.
  
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• RE: Can we make isoglosses?

  Koen G > 11-05-2023, 06:00 PM

  (11-05-2023, 04:08 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So still no idea what a "gaismich" could be.  gais- is probably goat but I cannot think about anything for -mich, it's not a suffix that makes sense. A tithe or rental fee related to goatkeeping? Four geese was a substantial payment for a tax.

  
  This is an interesting line of reasoning, to think of the animals as "animal to be paid for...". It could be for a certain day, but also for a certain service. Maybe the geese are a tax on the right to sell goat's milk?

• RE: Can we make isoglosses?

  Anton > 11-05-2023, 07:17 PM

  There are 23 occurrences of milch in these recordings, but not a single gais/geis milch.
  
  Interestingly, Gais (named "Gaiss" in the original document) is also a location, it is mentioned in a row with Appenzell and others:
  
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  Quote:Die Landleute zu Appenzell, Hundwil, Urnäsch, Gais und Teufen verbünden sich mit 15 schwäbischen Reichsstädten, darunter St. Gallen.

  (as the abstract says)
  
  Potentially "gaismich" can be just a reference to a local breed. "Gaismich gens" = geese of Gais.
  
  And if it is not "gaisiunge" but "gaisinnge", then it could mean just the same thing.

• RE: Can we make isoglosses?

  Aga Tentakulus > 12-05-2023, 01:30 PM

  @nablator
  I have now played through some variants in sentences.
  I think you are right about "become". Some regions use it that way. And the "w'den / w(er)den) version makes sense. Still, I think "walten/walden" is a possibility for "valden".
  Which also brings me to "o". "or" would be written as "od'" / od(er).  So in "xxxmich o" the "d" is not present. So "o" remains in some regions also "a" as (also).  "o / a" = also.
  
  
  Ich habe jetzt einige varianten in Sätzen durchgespielt.
  Ich denke Du hast recht was "werden" angeht. Einige Regionen verwenden es so. Und die "w'den / w(er)den) Version macht Sinn. Dennoch halte ich "walten/walden" als Möglichkeit für "valden".
  Was mich auch gleich zu "o" bringt. "oder" wäre als "od'"  / od(er). geschrieben.  So ist bei "xxxmich o" das "d" nicht vorhanden. So bleibt "o" in einiegen Regionen auch "a" als (auch).  "o / a" = auch.
  
  
  Was noch witzig ist, ist die Bedeutung von "Gas" in Südtirol.
  Was wiederum die "Gasmich" endgültig für mich vom Tisch wischt.
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