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Can we make isoglosses?
- Can we make isoglosses?
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RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Anton > 10-05-2023, 01:53 PM
Thanks Bernd and Koen for explanation of all those corrigenda not easy to follow for those who are not German speakers.
I have a question.
In the composite word "geisjunge", what part is the subject - the "geis" or the "junge"? I mean, the supposed adjective "geisjunge" would designate something related to a young goat (geis) or something related to a young man ("junge") related to goats (a shepherd, that is). Or it can be either way and we cannot tell? -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Anton > 10-05-2023, 02:28 PM
Also, looking carefully at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I see that the text says "gensjunge" (with the "gens" part emphasized in italics), while footnote a says "gaisiunge". The subsequent footnote 1 deals mostly with "gans" and makes a clumsy supposition that the scribe put "gais" instead of "gans" in mistake.
I think there are all sorts of confusion here.
The multitran online dictionary tells me that "Junge" is an Austrian expression for giblets (hen or goose). So I see it as follows:
1. The scribe originally wrote "gaisiunge" (modern way would be "geisjunge") and that was what he intended (whatever that means).
2. The editor of the book transcribes the parchment and recognizes the word as "geisiunge" or "geisinnge". He cannot understand the word, especially in the context of the subsequent "gens", and for that reason leaves the footnote a, which, in this case, serves just as kind of "sic!"
3. Enters another editor who pays attention to the word "gens" and recalls that "junge" is an Austrian jargon word for goose giblets. Respectively, he dismisses any goats and invents his clumsy explanation and adds it as footnote 1. He also substitutes "gais" with "gens" in the transcription, but puts it in italics to mark it as editorial correction.
4. At the stage of corrections, enters yet another editor who also ventured to consult another collection of documents (that where "gaismich" is featured). He understands what "gaismich" is, and comes to conclusion that "gaisjunge" is something homogenous to "gaismich", and thus it is a perfectly valid word fit in the context. Respectively, he dismisses footnote 1. Footnote a needs not be obsoleted because it just attests what is actually written in the parchment. (The "vgl Anm 1" in italics is actually just a reference to Footnote 1, added by our second Editor). -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Anton > 10-05-2023, 02:47 PM
Now, supposing that the following holds true (I don't know if it does):
- the actual words (im modern spelling) are "geisjunge" and "geismich" (that is, both relate to goats and no scribal or recognition mistakes took place)
- in the word "geisjunge" it is the "geis" that is the subject, and not the "junge" - which makes the meaning thereof: "young goat"
And considering that, in both cases, preceding fowl have seasonal attributes (herbst, fastnacht),
And considering that the attribute of the geese would probably be seasonal as well,
One concludes that "geisjunge" and "geismich" are something seasonal which date or season is related to goats. Which of course immediately suggests the sign of Capricorn.
Now, "geisjunge" would then mean "early in Capricorn" which is around Christmas. This also explains why "Geis" is actually capitalized in "Geisjunge" - to designate that as the Zodiacal sign. Goose, by the way, is, I think, traditional Christmas meal in Europe, so that fits well.
What is "geismich" in relation to the Capricorn period, I cannot propose offhand.
Also, I believe, Capricorn in German folk tradition is typically called "Ziege", and not "Geis". So this is just a hypothesis, let German speakers assess it better. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Koen G > 10-05-2023, 03:51 PM
(10-05-2023, 02:33 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I found the original Herzogenburg document containing "gaismich"!
It was digitized by the Herzogenburg monastery.
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Nice! So it is a correct transcription.
Maybe the "0" after gasmich represents an egg
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RE: Can we make isoglosses?
nablator > 10-05-2023, 04:18 PM
I guess the correction to junge happened because mi(l)ch was understood as milk (suckling) i.e. young.
French: chevreau de lait = young goat
If "gaismich" or "gaisiunge" is a young goat, what is "Gens" ??? -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Bernd > 10-05-2023, 04:45 PM
Note the thin scribal mark between i and ch of "gaismich". It is nowhere else in the entire text. Could it indicate a missing letter?
Unfortunately the St. Pölten document with "Gaisiunge" is not digitized yet
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@Anton
The idea that these words represent some holiday or season is tempting but I doubt it has anything to do with Capricorn and such date-dependent taxes would pop up regularly like with chickens. It would have been "Geiss "though, "Ziege" is not Bavarian and only introgressed from the north much later.
Mostly it's just the number of geese mentioned in documents or the fact that they had to be fattened, nothing else. Also taxes were not collected at or before Christmas, this would have been seen as indecent. Apparently geese were collected as tax on different but specific dates in summer like Aug.15 (Ascension of Mary), Aug. 24. (St. Bartholomy), Sept. 1 (St. Giles) and this probably varied both locally and over time. However it appears there was only one collection date per year, not two like for chickens. You can search for "Gänsezehent".
I still have zero idea what gaismich or gaisiunge might mean. -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Anton > 10-05-2023, 05:23 PM
There is a large article in Swiss Idiotikon You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which suggests (if I understand correctly) that "gans" and "geis" were used interchangeably for goose. For (unambigous) goat there's the article "geiss": You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
However, one would expect consistency from a scribe in adjacent words of his narrative, so if he uses "gens" and "gais" adjacently, chances are that different things are meant.
(10-05-2023, 04:45 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I still have zero idea what gaismich or gaisiunge might mean.
Maybe some unit or measure? Like "two bottles of water". Although geese would hardly be counted in any other way than plain number.
Koen, haven't you tried asking ChatGPT about possible relation of goats to geese? -
RE: Can we make isoglosses?
Koen G > 10-05-2023, 05:56 PM
ChatGPT is unfortunately of no use here, this is really specialized :/
In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you linked, I see right away that the son of the family is called "der gaisjunge". So maybe a boy goatherd? In that case, something like "gaisjung gens" would be goatherd goose. A goose that herds goats? Or a goose associated with goatherds?