Mark Knowles > 29-12-2022, 09:54 AM
(29-12-2022, 06:05 AM)julian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(more difficult) the frequent occurrences of word repetitions. For b) it's hard to explain those if there is a one to one mapping between the plaintext and the ciphered form, right?
Koen G > 29-12-2022, 10:29 AM
Mark Knowles > 29-12-2022, 02:04 PM
(28-12-2022, 09:34 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. nothing innovative comes from out of the blue.
MichelleL11 > 29-12-2022, 03:17 PM
(29-12-2022, 02:04 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If it did then I can see the only explanation would be that it was invented by a great genius who was able to make such an intellectual leap out of nowhere. I would be surprised if we weren't well aware of this genius from another context. As we know the likes of Da Vinci is too late. So overall I see this as an unlikely, if attractive, explanation.
Mark Knowles > 29-12-2022, 03:44 PM
(29-12-2022, 03:17 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have come to discard anything in explaining the Voynich that feels like it comes from a novel.
nablator > 29-12-2022, 05:02 PM
(29-12-2022, 02:04 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However the idea that a cipher as complex as we see in the Voynich manuscript emerged out of thin air is hard to believe. If it did then I can see the only explanation would be that it was invented by a great genius who was able to make such an intellectual leap out of nowhere.Or we are seeing emergent behavior, not necessarily intended, from simple rules, easy to apply on the fly, without rewriting, code book, or maths.
Mark Knowles > 29-12-2022, 06:18 PM
(29-12-2022, 05:02 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is an intriguing notion, but can you give a practical example or parallel to what you are referring? Otherwise it seems like an imprecise theoretical idea. And why would this phenomenon emerge only once with the Voynich and not independently in other instances?(29-12-2022, 02:04 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However the idea that a cipher as complex as we see in the Voynich manuscript emerged out of thin air is hard to believe. If it did then I can see the only explanation would be that it was invented by a great genius who was able to make such an intellectual leap out of nowhere.Or we are seeing emergent behavior, not necessarily intended, from simple rules, easy to apply on the fly, without rewriting, code book, or maths.
nablator > 29-12-2022, 08:39 PM
(29-12-2022, 06:18 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is an intriguing notion, but can you give a practical example or parallel to what you are referring? Otherwise it seems like an imprecise theoretical idea.My anti-Polybius cipher, maybe as part of a board game.
Quote:And why would this phenomenon emerge only once with the Voynich and not independently in other instances?There was never a need to give the encipherer/scribe enough liberty to evolve various quirky non-random behaviors. The VM was done for fun, not necessity.
Mark Knowles > 29-12-2022, 10:01 PM
(29-12-2022, 08:39 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-12-2022, 06:18 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is an intriguing notion, but can you give a practical example or parallel to what you are referring? Otherwise it seems like an imprecise theoretical idea.My anti-Polybius cipher, maybe as part of a board game.
Quote:And why would this phenomenon emerge only once with the Voynich and not independently in other instances?There was never a need to give the encipherer/scribe enough liberty to evolve various quirky non-random behaviors. The VM was done for fun, not necessity.
P.S.: Polygraphia III: "The cipher that pretends to be an artificial language" (Jürgen Hermes) could have been used in a creative way by selecting between the many alternatives for each pseudo-word to (for example) simulate grammar or maximize similarity.
nablator > 29-12-2022, 10:41 PM
(29-12-2022, 10:01 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know your anti-polybius theory, but is that based on knowledge of the polysius square? If so then it does have a source.Not really, it is simple enough to have been invented independently. It has in common with the Polybius square that the ciphertext is a stream of alternated 2D coordinates xyxyxy... and the key is a square table. But instead of picking the cleartext letters at each (x, y) cell, it's the opposite, (therefore anti) they are picked between two vertices of the zigzag path defined by the stream of coordinates, leaving a lot of freedom when the original Polybius square cipher has none. I described it shortly here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.