nablator > 30-12-2022, 12:02 PM
(30-12-2022, 10:54 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not sure if this is the best way of putting this given the current state of our knowledge.Sure. My opinion only, not a certainty.
Quote:It suggests that the Voynich cipher (if we assume it is one) is a conscious attempt to make substitution ciphers more difficult to crack.My system is not better than a substitution cipher with homophones and nulls for any purpose other than having fun, possibly in the context of a game. Therefore of no practical value for "serious" cryptography. If it is more secure, it is mostly because we don't know the rules. Any system with unknown rules is nearly impossible to crack. I tried several variants of the antipolybius or zigzag path cipher but I believe that there is some added complexity in the way apparent ligatures and gallows should be interpreted, that are difficult to guess.
(30-12-2022, 11:21 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An overly complicated system would be very cumbersome to implement and, given the mass of text, also very error-prone.Yes. My design constraints for trying to replicate Voynichese were: nothing that requires more than a quick look at a table to encipher/decipher a letter or a few letters at a time. All ciphers/codes other than monoalphabetic substitution require more time-consuming or boring operations. In this sense, my system fits nicely in the gap.
Mark Knowles > 30-12-2022, 06:36 PM
(30-12-2022, 03:45 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.- in case of a historical innovation, evidence of the previous thoughts may no longer be available, or ahs not yet been found.
(30-12-2022, 03:45 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In any case, my main concern with respect to the discussion is the term "The cipher". We do not even know if there is one, or, if there is a method, it is anything like "a cipher".
Aga Tentakulus > 30-12-2022, 10:35 PM
R. Sale > 31-12-2022, 12:13 AM
R. Sale > 31-12-2022, 12:43 AM
Mark Knowles > 31-12-2022, 02:40 AM
(30-12-2022, 02:49 AM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(30-12-2022, 02:10 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But if was a superior way to encipher text then surely it would have been very popular. Clearly a cipher as difficult to break as the Voynich cipher would have been preferred to the standard ciphers of that time.
Not necessarily if it was an absolute pain to use. Diplomatic and military cyphers have not always prioritised greater secrecy over speed, to their cost.
Mark Knowles > 31-12-2022, 02:50 AM
(30-12-2022, 10:54 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(30-12-2022, 09:51 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is an evolutionary gap between substitution ciphers and more advanced ciphers/codes that the Voynich fills nicely.
I'm not sure if this is the best way of putting this given the current state of our knowledge. It suggests that the Voynich cipher (if we assume it is one) is a conscious attempt to make substitution ciphers more difficult to crack. Wouldn't we expect such innovation in a different context, i.e. politics, espionage, military...? The Voynich just appears to be a different beast altogether, at least I wouldn't place it in any kind of evolutionary or hierarchical scheme.
ReneZ > 31-12-2022, 05:22 AM
(30-12-2022, 06:36 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In fact on the last occasion that I asked you then you said that you thought the Voynich to be written in cipher.
Aga Tentakulus > 31-12-2022, 07:45 AM
Aga Tentakulus > 31-12-2022, 07:57 AM