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• Apophatic theory

  R. Sale > 20-07-2021, 06:53 PM

  I  wasn't going to mention it, but ...
  
  A theory is just a theory, if there is no example. But if a theory has an example, then what is it?
  
  As a potential VMs example, there are the VMs rainbows of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f83v. And there is, or at least there could be, that ever persistent question: Who dat *NOT* sitting on their double rainbow throne?!
  
  Multiple medieval works of art depict Christ on such a throne. However that is not the only possibility, as the works of Christine de Pizan show classical deities seated on rainbows. And perhaps there was no intended occupant. So there's nothing really there to narrow down the possibilities. But listen to the VMs. There are only a few areas, a few peaks that rise above the fog of VMs obfuscation.
  
  First is the VMs cosmos - tied by comparison to Paris from 1410, to the library of the Duke of Berry (d. 1416) by BNF Fr.565, and to the years around 1430 by Harley 334. While historically during the Hundred Years war, England, allied with the Duchy Burgundy, held control of Paris form 1420 to 1435.
  
  Second is mythical Melusine, the mermaid-like, Luxembourg interpretation believed ancestral to the Valois rulers of France, etc. including the Dukes of Burgundy. Her presence still represented (and historically noted) at the Feast of the Pheasant, celebrated by the Duke of Burgundy in 1454.
  
  Then there is the matter of the Golden Fleece: Rather ambiguous, many interpretations both pro and con. One clear fact: that it originated in 1430 from the Duke of Burgundy. One potential representation associated with Melusine, the other known as the VMs 'critter' on f80v. Here the ambiguous representation has a three-part structure of the creature itself, a nebuly line, and potential droplets. This structure is known to repeat in the 1313 Apocalypse of S Jean : Agnus Dei, cosmic boundary, droplets of blood. The golden fleece image has merged with the Agnus Dei lamb, like Melusine with the generic mermaid. Provenance indicates that the 1313 text was later a part of the library of the Dukes of Burgundy.
  
  In light of the above then, reconsider the original question: who dat? Who is not sitting on their rainbow throne? Is there a significant religious event that is compatible in both time and place? Indeed, there is! La Sainte Hostie de Dijon.
  
  This set of interpretations would seem to reveal a fairly detailed familiarity with a specific, historical period of time, that is also compatible with the C-14 parchment dating. Such information could be gathered through life experience, or by knowledgeable research. Dumb luck seems unlikely to encompass so many mutually compatible details.

• RE: Apophatic theory

  Koen G > 20-07-2021, 11:05 PM

  The concept of apophatic thought was new to me, but I am interested since, as others have remarked, the VM stands out for things it is missing. 
  
  My first impressions though, and again I am only starting to learn about this concept, is that apophatic writing is often philosophical: we cannot comprehend what God is, but it may be easier to say what he certainly isn't. But it doesn't entail any prohibitions: you can depict Jesus to help your imagination, but know that this image will be imperfect.
  
  The Rothschild Canticles is a famous example of an apophatic work. It quite literally shows that God is hidden and tries to visualize complex apophatic metaphors, but at the same time the faces and bodies of the members of the Trinity are often depicted. It uses images of God and Jesus to talk about how unknowable they are.
  
  So one complicating factor is that apophatic imagery gladly depicts Jesus. Another is that the VM also omits certain other, more "earthly" things, like farmers, furniture, recognizable tools... There are hundreds of human figures in the MS, but because these are like souls, the visual vocabulary is limited and many things we would expect in a medieval manuscript with such a wealth of figures are missing. 
  
  Now on the other hand, what the Rothschild Canticles does use is a limited set of symbols, for example a sun stands for Jesus. This is something we do recognize from the VM, so there may definitely be an apophatic link. But I would first like to know more about the actual medieval practice before adding wild speculation about the VM.

• RE: Apophatic theory

  Pythagoras > 21-07-2021, 01:02 PM

  Interesting. Christine de Pisan has also come up in my analysis. what works of hers has this rainbow? did she draw it, or only write the words?
  why would this suggest apophasis as opposed to atheistic or pagan suggestions? if she had a hand in the VMS, who were the other hands?
  Do you think the golden fleece is depicted in the VMS (perhaps 35r?). Or only that this order of the golden fleece is relevant?

• RE: Apophatic theory

  R. Sale > 22-07-2021, 12:31 AM

  The classical deities are in the versions of L'Epistre Othea. In BNF Fr.. 606 the use of the rainbow is subtle, but in Cod. Bodmer 49 it is clear.
  
  Apparently Christine de Pizan had a workshop. Not much is known, just a name: Anastasia, the Illustrator. Some books, said to be written by Christine, are in the KBR Library.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Apophasis is a literary trick of mentioning something (xxx), but using a phrase like "not to mention xxx' or "we need not remind you of xxx". Thus the mentioning occurs despite the superficial statement to the contrary. I'm not quite sure how this works visually because something has to be put forward for any type of reference to occur. So some object or artistic element needs to stand in for the actual xxx, and this is more of a form of substitution. The apophatic technique can be used by certain ideologies, but is not limited to any ideology. Still the idea is to represent that something (xxx) in a way where xxx is not shown.
  
  The golden fleece has been suggested, with the Valois mermaid on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and as the VMs critter on f80v. It serves as a marker of historical, cultural and traditional connections. It appears to be intentionally ambiguous or given a an unexpected presentation in order to disguise or confuse (but not completely deny) its identity.

• RE: Apophatic theory

  Pythagoras > 23-07-2021, 06:15 AM

  I did find two other possible apophatic connections to the VMS.
  
  1. The Cloud of Unknowing
  (Middle English: The Cloude of Unknowyng) is an anonymous work of Christian mysticism written in Middle English in the latter half of the 14th century. The text is a spiritual guide on contemplative prayer in the late Middle Ages. The underlying message of this work suggests that the way to know God is to abandon consideration of God's particular activities and attributes, and be courageous enough to surrender one's mind and ego to the realm of "unknowing", at which point one may begin to glimpse the nature of God.
  
  2. Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite (or Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite) of Corpus Areopagiticum.
  
  Was initially thought to be 1st Century Dionysius the Areopagite but in the 15th Century it was demonstrated to be dated much later circa 6th Century.
  
  
  These apophatic texts were an integration of mysticism into theological traditions (whether christian or pagan) (influenced by expansions of the east at the time).
  
  Indeed our central castle image in our VMS map is atop of a cloud.
  
  This tradition has reputedly inspired generations of mystics, from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the latter two of whom may have been influenced by The Cloud itself).
  
  Such mysticism indeed was present in the ancient world with the Elusynian and Orphic mysteries and in eastern mysticism, but lacking in the Christiandome.
  
  When people are devastated by floods, plague, war (crusades), famine, and uncertainty, (and inquisition) they may ask why would a good God do this? and thus turn to mysticism to explain.
  
  Indeed ive found many references to Orphic songs in the VMS text.
  
  so its very possible the authors of the VMS, were influenced by these "pseudo dionysian" apophatic mystical writers.
  
  If Christine dePizan has a hand in the VMS, she or they may have been influenced for example (by the classic mysteries themselves) or by Thomas Gallus and other Pseudo Dionysiian or apophatic writers.
  
  Why do i think the text is pseudo dyonsian connected? because of the orphic songs ive found referred to in the text (which the mystery cults used) and to the dionysian themes referred to in the text.
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