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An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

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  • [Blog Post] An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)
• An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

• An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

  Koen G > 17-06-2021, 03:38 PM

  I just published a post I've been working on together with Cary for the last couple of months. It took a lot more involvement, research and late night writing sessions than usual, but we are happy with the result. We believe it opens up a new, coherent avenue of investigation into the manuscript's images.
  
  If possible, please read it when you have some time to spare, since it turned out much longer than my usual posts (more like an article).
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

  Mark Knowles > 17-06-2021, 05:01 PM

  (17-06-2021, 03:38 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I just published a post.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  I am very confused by the statement in your article in the section entitled Ecclesia on the Rosettes foldout: "And none of the several little buildings in the roundels and on the walls connecting them look particularly church-like". You say "none", but do you mean "many"?

• RE: An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

  Koen G > 17-06-2021, 09:21 PM

  I didn't think of them as very church-like, Mark, but if you think there are many churches to accompany the castle that's fine by me too - even better.

• RE: An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

  Mark Knowles > 18-06-2021, 02:58 AM

  (17-06-2021, 09:21 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I didn't think of them as very church-like, Mark, but if you think there are many churches to accompany the castle that's fine by me too - even better.

  
  Many of them have quite clear and distinct spires. What do you think those buildings are?
  
  Nick Pelling, in his book, "The Curse" he identifies two buildings as being a church and a monastery. If they are not religious buildings what else could they be?
  
  I think this is an important question as in my experience most people who have put forward theories of the page haven't studied the page in much detail and I think this is an example of that. Having looked at your theory in general this is also my impression. There are lots of specific details, which I could list, of the page that you haven't addressed with your theory.
  
  Don't get me wrong I think imaginative theories of the page are of great interest and value. And this theory definitely falls into this category, which is good.

• RE: An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

  Aga Tentakulus > 18-06-2021, 06:13 AM

  Personally, I only see one church. Maybe a second one, but it's hard to see because the rest is right in the fold.
  I see a church, a city gate, maybe a lighthouse.
  Possibly another watchtower. Everything else seems to be defence towers. One even has an oriel.
  It doesn't really look religious to me.

• RE: An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

  Koen G > 18-06-2021, 06:28 AM

  I agree that all details are not addressed, and this is done on purpose. I would be highly suspicious of a theory that explains everything, because that probably means a ton of speculation is going on. We only addressed those parts for which we found clear indications.
  
  The idea is that those buildings represent "the world". As written in the post, this overlaps with Rene's hypothesis about the page. The emblem for "the world" is a T-O map.

• RE: An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

  Mark Knowles > 18-06-2021, 08:25 AM

  (18-06-2021, 06:28 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree that all details are not addressed, and this is done on purpose. I would be highly suspicious of a theory that explains everything, because that probably means a ton of speculation is going on. We only addressed those parts for which we found clear indications.
  
  The idea is that those buildings represent "the world". As written in the post, this overlaps with Rene's hypothesis about the page. The emblem for "the world" is a T-O map.

  
  I certainly don't expect anyone to have a complete explanation of all the details or to be confident that one has explained them all correctly. However to leave so many undiscussed I think is problematic, especially when you make a statement like "And none of the several little buildings in the roundels and on the walls connecting them look particularly church-like" I think then it worth going through building by building and saying why you think it does not look like a church and what you think it looks more like. A statement like this implies just a cursory glance at the buildings and leads one to think that so many of the details on the page have been considered with the same level of attention. I think a theory which explains so few of the details has to be drawn into question. Ultimately the fewer details are explained the greater number of possible theories could be said to fit.
  
  My understanding(correct me if I am wrong) is that Rene believed(es) that the large top right circle represents the Earth not the small top right T/O map. It is my opinion that the top right T/O map represents the Earth, however I don't think it makes sense for both circles to represent the Earth.

• RE: An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

  Mark Knowles > 18-06-2021, 08:28 AM

  (18-06-2021, 06:28 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree that all details are not addressed, and this is done on purpose.

  
  I think I remember you arguing that the bottom left rosette was a smaller version of the whole page, I wonder where that fits with the rest of your theory.

• RE: An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

  Koen G > 18-06-2021, 08:39 AM

  There are many medieval images where the buildings are part of the backdrop without referring to any specific place. If something like that is the case for these tiny details, then trying to identify them is useless. Similarly, the castle may be a generic castle, not a specific one. What interests me first is the overall structure of the page.
  
  I have ideas about the bottom left, but I preferred not to include them here because they feel less certain than the rest. 
  Also, I don't think anyone's views should be static.

• RE: An Allegory of Salvation (Koen Gheuens & Cary Rapaport)

  LisaFaginDavis > 18-06-2021, 06:58 PM

  This is interesting, Koen. I'm not quite convinced, but I see where you're going. That kind of late-medieval Christological devotion tends to be centered in northern Europe, so you'd need to factor that into your work. I'd also suggest that you spend some time with the illustrations of the Scivias, which take this devotional framework to a whole different level. Much earlier than the VMS, of course, but Hildegard was ahead of her time! Also, Jeffrey Hamburger and other art historians have written about the late-medieval imagery of and devotion to Christ's wounds, so that might be helpful to you as well.
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