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Is the VM an autograph or copy?
- Is the VM an autograph or copy?
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RE: Is the VM an autograph or copy?
Stephen Carlson > 20-12-2019, 12:51 PM
(20-12-2019, 11:35 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(20-12-2019, 08:44 AM)Stephen Carlson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(20-12-2019, 06:33 AM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
In my blog, I gave an example of f 80r, where the top figure and the steps of the text are written in one (tone) ink.
The dark-going-to-light pattern (which is what I think is going on) looks like what you get when you re-ink the pen.
Actually, I'm pretty sure Wladimir is right... that this was done in two passes. I don't think this is a normal pen-dipping pattern. I'm used to how that looks.
There are pen-dipping patterns in the VMS, but there are other places where it looks like a different ink mix. Ink was mixed by hand and if it sits for a while, it settles and the result is not quite as dark unless you remember to shake the ink bottle.
Plus there is support for the idea that text was added on the right-hand side on another folio that was never "justified" (the right side was left ragged). I don't know if this was intentional or if the manuscript was never finished, but it stands out as different because it is only left-justified.
There are also places where it looks like there is a diagonal "channel" of spaces running down the page... as if the text were added in two passes and a slightly wider gap resulted.
All this is circumstantial, but it happens so often, you really do have to wonder if the text was laid down in passes.
Interesting. Could this indicate how the pages were (generally?) written, not left-to-right, top-to-bottom, but from upper-left to lower-right??? -
RE: Is the VM an autograph or copy?
ReneZ > 20-12-2019, 02:27 PM
The text was undoubtedly written left to right and top to bottom, but there are numerous instances where smaller or larger bits were apparently added or inserted later.
I am not aware of any systematic analysis of this, but I have seen some peculiarities over the years.
The example from Wladimir with the two shades of ink is one such case.
I have seen vertical jumps in the writing baseline that repeated at roughly the same point on several consecutive lines.
The third paragraph on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. shows something and the first paragraph looks suspicious as well.
The second paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. shows signs that the initial characters were written first, and the rest added later.
f85r1 shows several instances where it looks as if the writing of a lower line affects the line above it. -
RE: Is the VM an autograph or copy?
Aga Tentakulus > 20-12-2019, 06:28 PM
With this difference in colour the first question comes to me:
How light-sensitive is the ink? Can it be that the corner under a pile looks out and the sun does the rest in a few days ?
I know this from newspapers, but here it is different material. -
RE: Is the VM an autograph or copy?
-JKP- > 20-12-2019, 07:05 PM
It can. But it has a certain look to it that's different from a different ink color or the progression of dark-to-light from pen-dipping.
For example, if the light from a window hits a page day after day, the fading might cut diagonally across some of the letters. -
RE: Is the VM an autograph or copy?
Aga Tentakulus > 20-12-2019, 07:29 PM
Maybe there's another reason.
Because it is a leaflet, the hand is in the middle of the fold.
You may have noticed that if you leave your hand in one place on the paper for too long, the ink doesn't soak in as much. This is caused by grease, salt and humidity.
Basically, I don't see any intention in the color change, rather a normal phenomenon.
the same
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RE: Is the VM an autograph or copy?
-JKP- > 20-12-2019, 07:38 PM
That looks like something spilled on it:
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RE: Is the VM an autograph or copy?
nickpelling > 21-12-2019, 10:24 AM
In "The Curse of the Voynich" (2006), I gave some specific codicological reasons why I concluded the creator of the Voynich Manuscript went out of their way to preserve the layout and structure of previous document(s).
1. There's a hole (apparently integral to the page design) that was physically rubbed through the vellum (no mean task). I contend that this is a copy of a vellum hole in the page being copied from
2. There's a substantial vertical gap at the edge on both sides of a page in Quire 20 (Q20). I contend that this is a copy of a vellum tear in the page being copied from.
The zodiac figures, as Koen and others (including myself) have discussed at length here and on blogs, seem highly likely to be copies from an Alsace calendar from the 1420s. But given that every other figure in the manuscript seems to be drawn in a different style, my belief is that it's hard to get anything from this except an earliest date.
The wolkenband star drawing, as Ellie Velinska and I blogged about, seems to have been directly influenced by drawings added to Nicole Oresme's Traité de la sphère in the early 15th century, e.g. BNF Français 565:
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My conclusion was "If this is correct, then what we are looking at in the Voynich Manuscript’s “Andromeda” T-O page would seem to be a curiously stripped-down copy of a very specific T-O map." -
RE: Is the VM an autograph or copy?
VViews > 21-12-2019, 03:51 PM
(21-12-2019, 10:24 AM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1. There's a hole (apparently integral to the page design) that was physically rubbed through the vellum (no mean task). I contend that this is a copy of a vellum hole in the page being copied from
Hi Nick,
I recall you writing about that, but I can't remember if you were able to find any other examples of holes in vellum being deliberately produced to match an original manuscript's flaw.
It seems to me like this would be a rather unusual thing to do, and perhaps something could be learned if other examples of such "vellum hole copying" were found. -
RE: Is the VM an autograph or copy?
Aga Tentakulus > 21-12-2019, 04:15 PM
I don't know which hole is meant, but I think this one.
Bullet hole, caliber 22 Magnum.
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RE: Is the VM an autograph or copy?
nickpelling > 21-12-2019, 05:45 PM
I haven't yet found any other examples of 'copied holes', but would be delighted to learn of any.
I suspect this may yet turn out to be the only one in vellum (vellum is really durable, so you'd surely need an exceptionally strong reason to motivate you to rub a hole through it).