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The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

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• The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

• The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

  ReneZ > 13-08-2019, 03:32 PM

  (No the answer won't be 42 or 56. More like 8).
  
  OK, please all be aware that the following is speculation. I like it but it may very well be completely wrong.
  
  This links the meaning of the rosettes diagram to the rest of the book, and gives a tentative explanation what was the purpose of the book.
  
  Looking at the centre there are, what I considered before, six tower-like objects carrying the sky. I changed my mind on that. In the present interpretation, I propose that these are medicine containers. Just like in the pharmaceutical / small plants section.
  
  [Of course, there are also much simpler containers there, but I could imagine that the book could include low-quality or cheap medicine in these, and high-quality or expensive medicine in the elaborate containers. That isn't critical. My suggestion is that the entire diagram illustrates where the power of this medicine comes from].
  
  The sky above the containers is the sky or the universe, through which the medicine receives its power. This power is transmitted through the sky via eight channels from eight sources. These are the outer circles, which all have some pipes or other connectors that transmit whatever power it is they have.
  
  In that sense, the figure as a whole may be closely related to f68v3 , the so-called spiral galaxy, which also shows eight channels connecting the earth (T-O map) with the sky/universe. If only we could read the text in these eight channels.
  
  One of the eight influences seems to be Earth (upper right). Another interesting one is in the upper left corner, which looks a lot like the plant of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . The four circles that are not in the corner are similar to some individual diagrams in the cosmo section, and I have no idea of course what they represent. It could be quite a weird cosmology that the author had put together.
  
  As a whole, this could suggest that this picture puts together why the medicine of the owner of the book is superior. (Especially the expensive stuff in the fancy bottles). Who knows he really was selling concoctions in such flasks.
  The remainder of the sections in the MS would have their expected meaning, explaining the individual herbs, the way the composites are combined, the astrology needed for calculating the day and time to take the medicine, and possibly the incantations / spells to recite, at the end of the book.
  
  Oddly enough, this could work both in case the MS has a meaningful text, or in case it is a medieval hoax.
  
  So it would be nice if some evidence was found of a late medieval quack who was selling medicine in such fancy bottles.

• RE: The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

  Koen G > 13-08-2019, 03:52 PM

  It's probably no coincidence that the similarity between these "large open" plants and the top left rosette has been on my mind too lately. My view on these plants has been shaken by the implications of Arma Christi. 
  
  I can't go into detail right now, but take a close look at the "teeth" surrounding the mandorla shapes. They are not spikes. They are not teeth. They are moons.

• RE: The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

  bi3mw > 13-08-2019, 06:35 PM

  Production and sale of Theriac (Triacha). The flasks are not too fancy but varied.
  
  BNF, Ms. Lat. 9333, Rhineland, mid 15th century, Ibn Butlan, Tacuinum sanitatis, folio 51v
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

  -JKP- > 13-08-2019, 06:40 PM

  (13-08-2019, 03:32 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
  
  Looking at the centre there are, what I considered before, six tower-like objects carrying the sky. I changed my mind on that. In the present interpretation, I propose that these are medicine containers. Just like in the pharmaceutical / small plants section.
  
  [Of course, there are also much simpler containers there, but I could imagine that the book could include low-quality or cheap medicine in these, and high-quality or expensive medicine in the elaborate containers. That isn't critical. My suggestion is that the entire diagram illustrates where the power of this medicine comes from].

  
  No argument from me on this one. For a long time I've thought the containers were a hybrid between architecture (a sacred dome or temple, or some other spiritual center) and containers like the containers in the small-plants section, and they remind me of spice jars (for the slightly more exotic spices).
  
  
  

  Quote:The sky above the containers is the sky or the universe, through which the medicine receives its power. This power is transmitted through the sky via eight channels from eight sources. These are the outer circles, which all have some pipes or other connectors that transmit whatever power it is they have.

  
  I won't argue with this either. I've thought the connections between rosettes (the spewy ones as opposed to the pathways) might be spiritual emanations and that the central rosette might be the metaphorical connection between the corporeal and the spiritual "layers".
  
  
  

  Quote:One of the eight influences seems to be Earth (upper right). Another interesting one is in the upper left corner, which looks a lot like the plant of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . The four circles that are not in the corner are similar to some individual diagrams in the cosmo section, and I have no idea of course what they represent. It could be quite a weird cosmology that the author had put together.

  
  Yeah, those outer rosettes. They have a lot of detail. So many possibilities... I have a lot of ideas for the four corners and I also wonder if they might have more than one meaning. One possibility is the elements, fire, water, etc., and if the diagram on 77r has anything to do with elements (it might, it might not) of which there are five, then the central rosette on the map might be the fifth element also (there might be a tie-in between the two folios). If the details are mean to be understood more literally, as a real journey, then the corners might be part of a strip map, but there are so many different places they could potentially represent.
  
  But getting back to the upper-left rosette, no argument from me that it might be a mandorla shape. That has been my thought for a long time, but I did NOT make the connection to plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or the other "mandorla" plant until Koen started posting the Arma Christi images and pointed out the possible connection between the mandorla shape and the hole in the parchment.
  
  
  
  

  Quote:As a whole, this could suggest that this picture puts together why the medicine of the owner of the book is superior. (Especially the expensive stuff in the fancy bottles). Who knows he really was selling concoctions in such flasks.

  
  I have thought for a long time (still do), that the VMS "map" might document a journey to Naples/Salerno/Baia area because of the Pozzuoli baths, the volcanic activity, and the fact that many medical students from Heidelberg, Paris, and Lombardy went there to continue or finish their education, but it wasn't until recently (Arma Christi discussions) that I thought it might have talismanic implications, as well.
  
  
  

  Quote:The remainder of the sections in the MS would have their expected meaning, explaining the individual herbs, the way the composites are combined, the astrology needed for calculating the day and time to take the medicine, and possibly the incantations / spells to recite, at the end of the book.
  
  Oddly enough, this could work both in case the MS has a meaningful text, or in case it is a medieval hoax.
  
  So it would be nice if some evidence was found of a late medieval quack who was selling medicine in such fancy bottles.

  
  You know, I've thought very often that it might have been an apothecary who put the VMS together. It wasn't my first thought (my first through was gyn/obs), but once I started looking through the many plant images and especially the way the small-plants section was arranged, I thought "maybe an apothecary is even more likely than a doctor". But an apothecary was not quite the same as a traveling medicine seller, there's definitely some overlap, but not entirely.
  
  "Snake oil" salesmen existed even in the 20th century, so it's an old (even if not particularly venerated) profession.
  
  So thinking this over for a bit, my first thought on reading your post was that it's an interesting idea but of course every idea comes with new questions... would a snake-oil salesman have the resources for such fancy containers? I've been thinking a doctor connected with the nobility partly because most people in the Middle Ages would never even have seen such fancy containers. They are definitely way above the usual fare. Another question is, Would fancy containers (especially delicate ones) be hard to tote around? How could that work? On a donkey? In a cart? Roads were rough. Or would the traveler have suppliers for bottles in different places? I doubt if containers like these would have been made in very many places outside of Bohemia, Paris, or Egypt.
  
  
  I have to admit, the idea of a traveling salesman (as opposed to an apothecary who occasionally traveled to get new goods) appeals to me and I don't think I had considered of it mainly because the logistics of carrying around (or even seeing) such fancy containers would be difficult. Their presence seems more connected to someone who is established in one place, like the owner of an apothecary shop in an urban center who might only travel occasionally, or someone working in a royal court.
  
  But I'll give it some thought. Many people traveled in those days... teachers, scribes... In fact they traveled right up until Victorian times. It wasn't until the mid-20th century that a number of professionals like doctors and certain food sellers started opening offices and stores rather than going directly to their customers.

• RE: The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

  Linda > 13-08-2019, 06:41 PM

  (13-08-2019, 03:52 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's probably no coincidence that the similarity between these "large open" plants and the top left rosette has been on my mind too lately. My view on these plants has been shaken by the implications of Arma Christi. 
  
  I can't go into detail right now, but take a close look at the "teeth" surrounding the mandorla shapes. They are not spikes. They are not teeth. They are moons.

  
  Agreed, they are crescents.

• RE: The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

  Koen G > 13-08-2019, 07:08 PM

  As for your interpretation of the large foldout, it reminds me a lot of what is going on in the Fludd diagram we You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Here also the surrounding material has to be interpreted as powers affecting the centre. I don't think it's a bad idea.
  
  I've always had a hard time linking the material of the "map" to places in the real world, so I'm also sympathetic towards a more general magical/mythical/cosmological view. But probably JKP is right that there may be real places layered in there. But that doesn't matter much for your interpretation.
  
  What I like about the traveling aspect (whatever his profession may be) is that it would explain the religious neutrality on the surface.

• RE: The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

  -JKP- > 13-08-2019, 07:13 PM

  If it someone Christian were peddling wares in Islamic lands (Spain, Persia), then religious neutrality on the surface might be a wise choice.

• RE: The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

  ReneZ > 13-08-2019, 07:25 PM

  The Fludd diagram is quite a bit easier to understand, and is also 200 years after the Voynich MS.
  
  With respect to the crescents in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the rosettes folio, I don't know if this is what they are. I agree they look like it but I don't know if anyone would draw moons like that in the early 15th C. Maybe yes, maybe no, I just don't know.
  
  The similarity of the two drawings is striking, regardless whether the crescents are moons or not.

• RE: The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

  Linda > 14-08-2019, 03:56 AM

  There were definitely crescents drawn like that before the time of the vms. Well maybe not in that exact pattern, but the crescents themselves.
  
  See the flags and or shields at the bottom of this 1325 Vesconte map,  and at the bottom of this 18th century reproduction of the Catalan Atlas (it shows the crescents better)(original 1375). The areas in which crescent flags and shields are located are approximately the areas i think this rosette with the crescents covers, i take the rosettes as a map, albeit not to scale or shape. Note the dip in the shoreline, i think that is what the bridge below the rosette signifies. (The rosette would be turned to be the bottom left corner to orient it in this interpretation)
  
  
  
  Third pic with cross vs crescent is earlier & more examples here You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  My pet theory on the idea of this rosette being similar to the flower, is that the flower was found in that area.

• RE: The meaning of the rosettes folio, the Voynich MS and everything

  Mark Knowles > 06-09-2019, 12:34 PM

  Antipope Benedict XIII - Pedro Martínez de Luna - Symbol Crescent Moon
  
  I said that I think the teeth are "crescent moons" some time ago and have already presented the argument as to why I make the Antipope association.
  
  I still find the idea that at the centre of the central rosette we have the sky bewildering. Why is it the sky?
  
  Because it is blue?
  
  Lots of things on this page are filled in with blue, but nobody seems to be suggesting that they are the sky.
  
  Because it is full of stars?
  
  The * that we see in the centre of the central rosette appear all over the page. Are we to infer that they also represent stars in all those other places? Look at the top right rosette, this has lots of * As I have made clear before I think the centre of the central rosette is a crown with its top rim very evident.
  
  Regarding the "towers" I have argued that they are Ciboria.
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