Torsten > 23-10-2019, 05:53 PM
(23-10-2019, 05:29 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One of my main problems with the method is that it is not very well formulated, and this does not allow testing / verifying it. Just an example: If a recipe for a cake gives a list of ingredients (eggs, flour, etc) and then says: "put all ingredients together and apply heat", then the recipe is too unspecific.
(23-10-2019, 05:29 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I tried to get from re-reading is how specific the 'prescription' of the auto-copying is. In the most recent paper, there are suggestions about the type of changes applied, but so far I could not get anything on 'how far back' the author/scribe was looking. I have not looked into the code of the application, but there must clearly be some assumptions in there.
(23-10-2019, 05:29 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What also seems to be missing is the initialisation. How was it started? This may seem a trivial detail, but again there must be something in the code for that.
(23-10-2019, 05:29 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is not written down specifically (and it is again something that I wanted to double-check) but it seems to be implied that every word in the MS (after the initialisation) is the result of auto-copying. That is, there are no words that are 'new seeds' or incidental re-initialisations.
(23-10-2019, 05:29 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Then, if this assumption (no new seeds) is true, one could verify the auto-copying hypothesis by checking for each word in the MS if there is a recent (how far back?) similar word (which max. edit distance?) from which it could be derived.
(23-10-2019, 05:29 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This seems to be the most basic test of the method, but I remember no evidence that this was even attempted. Again, something I would still need to check in the earlier papers. They are very long....
ReneZ > 25-10-2019, 08:16 AM
Aga Tentakulus > 25-10-2019, 10:58 AM
MarcoP > 25-10-2019, 12:51 PM
(25-10-2019, 08:16 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Since English does not have a network with small edit distances, an English text will not look like the product of an auto-copying process.
However, if one changes the English text by mapping words 1-to-1 with Voynichese words, it *might* look like one.
By re-organising this mapping, it is possible to make it into a text that looks like auto-copying. this was already shown before.
ReneZ > 25-10-2019, 01:51 PM
Torsten > 25-10-2019, 04:03 PM
(25-10-2019, 08:16 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The pseudo-code suggests that all paragraph-initial lines are generated from earlier paragraph-initial lines and all other lines are generated from earlier text on the same page.
(25-10-2019, 08:16 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One could check how much edit distance is needed to explain the Voynich MS text under the auto-copy hypothesis.
(25-10-2019, 08:16 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The 'evidence' of the network of words does not really support the auto-copy hypothesis, because the existence of such a network is a property of the vocabulary, not of the text.
(25-10-2019, 08:16 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However, if one changes the English text by mapping words 1-to-1 with Voynichese words, it *might* look like one.
MarcoP > 25-10-2019, 04:04 PM
(25-10-2019, 01:51 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the full repeats are assumed to be full repeats of words, and in that case they must already exist as repeats in the source text. They would not be introduced in the process I was describing.
ReneZ > 25-10-2019, 05:56 PM
(25-10-2019, 04:03 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(25-10-2019, 08:16 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The pseudo-code suggests that all paragraph-initial lines are generated from earlier paragraph-initial lines and all other lines are generated from earlier text on the same page.
This would make the proposed test: how many words actually comply with this, quite feasible to execute.
Quote:The text sample investigated throughout this section was created with Algorithm
1. The parameter setup as well as the sample size (approximately 10000 tokens) correspond
to the VMS "Recipes" section (f103r-f116v). Figures 6 and 7 show that this
text reproduces both of Zipf's laws as exactly as the VMS (or any natural language).
Quote:The result for the generated text sample can be seen in Figure 8. The self-citation
process provides an excellent qualitative and even quantitative explanation for the
asymptotic deviation (observed in the VMS) from the straight random result F(l) =
l**0.5 (which characterizes natural language). On the other hand, it also reproduces
the close-range structure of the VMS text, i.e. the n-gram entropy values, with high
accuracy.
(25-10-2019, 04:03 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(25-10-2019, 08:16 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The pseudo-code suggests that all paragraph-initial lines are generated from earlier paragraph-initial lines and all other lines are generated from earlier text on the same page.
This would make the proposed test: how many words actually comply with this, quite feasible to execute.
Quote:[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]if similar tokens share the same meaning, [/font]
ReneZ > 25-10-2019, 06:03 PM
Quote:The pure frequency of reduplication is something I have never seen in European texts.
Torsten > 25-10-2019, 07:49 PM
(25-10-2019, 05:56 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I did write was that you use your App as a key element in the evidence.
(25-10-2019, 05:56 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(25-10-2019, 04:03 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(25-10-2019, 08:16 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The pseudo-code suggests that all paragraph-initial lines are generated from earlier paragraph-initial lines and all other lines are generated from earlier text on the same page.
(25-10-2019, 05:56 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Again a more fundamental problem with the auto-copying process: everything that I see in the Voynich MS text speaks about planning. There is nothing arbitrary about it.
(25-10-2019, 05:56 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... I don't see any reason to believe that. This is not the case in any language I know of. Change a single letter and the meaning changes completely. Even in tonal languages, just change the tone and the meaning changes completely.