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• [split] f16r

  Monica Yokubinas > 14-05-2019, 12:13 AM

  (13-05-2019, 10:40 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So what we are seeing could be two monks who are being encouraged to celibacy by this plant. It would be interesting to find out more about this belief.
  
  In fact, it makes sense that two heads are drawn. Like testicles.

  
  chaste tree or monks pepper is found on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and was used to stop those pesky urges. lol. 
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• RE: f33r

  -JKP- > 14-05-2019, 12:17 AM

  That's not a chaste tree. It's similar, but the flower spikes are wrong.
  
  It's quite a good drawing of Cannabis. Even though Agnus-Castus is on my list for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I really think Cannabis is a better match.
  
  Agnus-castus is a very bushy tall branchy shrub and the flower spikes don't have leaf florets growing out them, whereas Cannabis does.
  
  
  
  Look at the flower spikes on Agnus-castus (chaste tree), they are long and separate from the leaves:
  
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  Now look at the ones on Cannabis, with the leaflets poking out between the flowers:
  
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  Also, Cannabis tends to be one stalk (and can sometimes have thick roots) and Chaste tree is very branchy.

• RE: f33r

  Monica Yokubinas > 14-05-2019, 12:40 PM

  (14-05-2019, 12:17 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's not a chaste tree. It's similar, but the flower spikes are wrong.
  
  It's quite a good drawing of Cannabis. Even though Agnus-Castus is on my list for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I really think Cannabis is a better match.
  
  Agnus-castus is a very bushy tall branchy shrub and the flower spikes don't have leaf florets growing out them, whereas Cannabis does.
  
  
  
  Look at the flower spikes on Agnus-castus (chaste tree), they are long and separate from the leaves:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  Now look at the ones on Cannabis, with the leaflets poking out between the flowers:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  
  Also, Cannabis tends to be one stalk (and can sometimes have thick roots) and Chaste tree is very branchy.

  
  I had the Vitix bush growing in my garden for many years. The flower heads turn into a multitude of dark brown-reddish seeds and look just like shown in the Voynich. the leaves grow all the way up the branch into the flower heads. And Cannabis buds do not look like that. lol

• RE: f33r

  Anton > 14-05-2019, 12:52 PM

  Hello Monica,
  
  The approach of trying to interpret Voynich plants in the "as is" fashion has been leading to dead end for a hundred years. It just leads to a conclusion that such plants do not exist. Something would still not fit - this or that "does not look like that"  
  
  What I consider promising is the mnemonics approach which implies that the artists's task was to convey essential mnemonics through his plant drawings rather than depicting them in naturalistic fashion.
  
  Have a look at this thread: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: f33r

  Monica Yokubinas > 14-05-2019, 01:24 PM

  (14-05-2019, 12:52 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello Monica,
  
  The approach of trying to interpret Voynich plants in the "as is" fashion has been leading to dead end for a hundred years. It just leads to a conclusion that such plants do not exist. Something would still not fit - this or that "does not look like that"  
  
  What I consider promising is the mnemonics approach which implies that the artists's task was to convey essential mnemonics through his plant drawings rather than depicting them in naturalistic fashion.
  
  Have a look at this thread: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  The plants do exist. It is the drawings that can be off a bit, so your mnemonics idea makes sense. Take You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for example. As a gardner i was fascinated b this strange plant. When i was able to translate it said it caused an itch like scabies and to urinate on it to stop the itching. I found the plant on the endangered species list and it is now currently only found in cyprus. "Centaurea akamantis is a semi-woody herbaceous plant (= subshrub) with drooping shoots up to 60 cm long. Its leaves are alternate and compound, divided either once or twice. The greyish-green leaflets are linear or spear-shaped..." You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Yet very few pictures of the plant show the spear shaped leaves.

• RE: f33r

  -JKP- > 14-05-2019, 07:38 PM

  (14-05-2019, 12:40 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had the Vitix bush growing in my garden for many years. The flower heads turn into a multitude of dark brown-reddish seeds and look just like shown in the Voynich. the leaves grow all the way up the branch into the flower heads. And Cannabis buds do not look like that. lol

  
  Unfortunately the leaves aren't much help in identifying 16r. Both Vitex agnus-castus and Cannabis have leaves that are separate right up to where they join the stalk and the VMS leaves are fused before they join the stalk.
  

  • Plant 16r has between 8 and 9 digits per leaf-group. The leaf margins are slightly jaggy.
    
  • Agnus-castus has between 5 and 7 digits per leaf-group. Leaf margins are mostly smooth (slight ripple, but no serrations). There is one uncommon variation called V. agnus-castus pseudonegundo that has 5 digits and deeply toothed leaves.
    
  • Cannabis has between 7 and 9 digits per leaf-group. Leaf margins are serrated.
    

  So for number of digits and leaf margins, Cannabis is closer to 16r.
  

  • Cannabis seeds are small and vary from reddish-brown to greenish-brown, sometimes they are speckled.
    
  • Agnus-castus seeds are medium and are usually a dull brown or grayish brown. Not usually speckled. I notice a few vendors' pics show them as reddish brown. This is not their most common color, so I don't know if this is a natural color variation or if the vendors enhanced the pics to make them more appealing.
    

  In terms of the spacing between the seed clumps:
  

  • Cannabis seedheads are tight and clumpy.
    
  • Agnus-castus seedheads are tiered (with small-to medium spaces between the clumps, depending on the species).
    
  • The VMS seeds are tight and clumpy.
    

  
  
  I still think the 16r drawing is closer to Cannabis than Agnus-castus, but as I said, Agnus-castus is #2 on my list. I haven't crossed it off.
  
  
  Stachys byzantina has seedheads like plant 16r, tight and clumpy, with leaflets sticking out, but the leaves are completely wrong. They are elliptical, not star-shaped. It's on my list, but I am hesitant to mention it because of the leaves.

• RE: f33r

  Anton > 14-05-2019, 07:55 PM

   I encourage everybody to use a dedicated thread for each plant folio, to keep the discussion organized.

• RE: [split] f16r

  Koen G > 14-05-2019, 08:00 PM

  Split into dedicated thread for f16r.
  I don't have much to add to this discussion, this is one of the few plants where I'm willing to commit to a proposed ID (i.e. hemp/cannabis/whatever)

• RE: [split] f16r

  Anton > 14-05-2019, 11:44 PM

  Let's see from the mnemonics perspective. The only thing that comes to my mind so far is that the groups of leaves are depicted much like Voynich stars. This might have been the author's general idea of how the stars should look like on paper (sorry, on vellum!). So my first idea is to try to link the plant to star or stars. Not to any particular star, but to "star" in general.

• RE: [split] f16r

  Anton > 15-05-2019, 12:14 AM

  OK, half an hour with Pritzel, the best match for anything "Stern"-related has been so far Trifolium arvense.
  
  "Sternklewer", suggests Pritzel, has been quite a local word in Unterweser area, so probably not the best match.
  
  Other names are cat's tail and rabbit's foot. The root may have some of cat's tail, don't know about rabbit's foot, probably not the strongest resemblance...
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