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No text, but a visual code
- No text, but a visual code
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RE: No text, but a visual code
Antonio García Jiménez > 27-10-2023, 04:50 PM
Precisely that page of Herbarium BPL 3103 seems to be a good example of what I am saying. Let's see the image better:
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The scribe must have thought about the text and purposely sought to place some words between the small branches. He could have continued the game because he had more gaps between the branches at his disposal, but he could not do so because the words no longer fit the gaps.
The problem with the VM examples that I have given, as bi3mw says, is that the words fit the gaps too well. Very suspicious. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
Juan_Sali > 27-10-2023, 06:27 PM
(26-10-2023, 07:29 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:oshfdk Wrote:
Because it just fits too well.
If you can read this why could not they ?
A few details that suggest than it didnt fit too well and some arragements were needed:
1. The line has an inclination that allows the final EVA-y be under the flower.
2. The letters of the top line are slightly bigger and the spacing between letters and vords are alightly lager that in the bottom line.
3. The space between lines is shorter than usual and the bottom line is not well aligned with the the left line. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
bi3mw > 27-10-2023, 07:03 PM
Yes, I would concede minor adjustments but all in all it still looks like " from one cast ". -
RE: No text, but a visual code
Antonio García Jiménez > 27-10-2023, 07:39 PM
In other examples that I have given things are clearer. Let's look at this image:
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In this case the scribe has placed between the stem and the branches just the glyphs that fit. Where three glyphs fit, he has put three and where only two fit, he has put two.
It is hard to believe that, if it is a language, those are the words that the phrase requires. The impression is that the scribe has simply filled in the gaps. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
oshfdk > 28-10-2023, 04:40 AM
A few examples of writing between the stems/leaves from the same MS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Including a close up of the example discussed above.
Can someone read this? The part I circled in the lower right, is it two words or one word split by the stem? If it's one word, then using this method of arbitrarily splitting words one can make the same arrangement as in Voynich easily, I suppose. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
Koen G > 28-10-2023, 04:53 AM
Supposedly this MS is from the second half of the 15th century? The handwriting somehow looks later. I can't read it at all. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
Helmut Winkler > 28-10-2023, 08:38 AM
(28-10-2023, 04:40 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A few examples of writing between the stems/leaves from the same MS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Including a close up of the example discussed above.
Can someone read this? The part I circled in the lower right, is it two words or one word split by the stem? If it's one word, then using this method of arbitrarily splitting words one can make the same arrangement as in Voynich easily, I suppose.
I can't read everything without spending more time on it than I have at present, but the part you circled is one word, 'ersten', erst//en (// for the stems).the line is '... Eppich ist warm // [in dem ?] // erst // en // grad // ...', Eppich is warm in the first degree -
RE: No text, but a visual code
oshfdk > 28-10-2023, 09:11 AM
(28-10-2023, 08:38 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can't read everything without spending more time on it than I have at present, but the part you circled is one word, 'ersten', erst//en (// for the stems).the line is '... Eppich ist warm // [in dem ?] // erst // en // grad // ...', Eppich is warm in the first degree
Thank you! So, if this herbal does split the words using the stem, there is no reason to believe this was impossible in the Voynich manuscript. Specific choice of glyphs that appear in narrow spaces could be explained, for example, if the scribe was using their line-ending (or word-ending) form, like the form used to indicate that a word will be continued on the next line. Something similar in spirit to: "thĩ || s ĩ || s || a tẽ || st".
Of course, I have an alternative explanation in line with my favorite distance ciphers, but there is no need to invoike it here, any type of character sequence/code/natural language can be broken apart and put in narrow spaces piecewise if we allow mid-word breaks, I suppose. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
nablator > 28-10-2023, 10:26 AM
(28-10-2023, 09:11 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, if this herbal does split the words using the stem, there is no reason to believe this was impossible in the Voynich manuscript.
There is. What we don't see in the VMS is evidence of vord-splitting where there should be, that would be recognizable because Voynichese is very positional. There are some unusual endings like -cTy, -ss but no split endings -iin, -dy, -or, -ar, -ol, -al. Unusual vord endings like -ch, -Sh, -e and unattached endings (curiously more common in Currier-B) are found in random places, not at the end of lines and before interruptions, where they should be more common than elsewhere. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
oshfdk > 28-10-2023, 11:07 AM
(28-10-2023, 10:26 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-10-2023, 09:11 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, if this herbal does split the words using the stem, there is no reason to believe this was impossible in the Voynich manuscript.
There is. What we don't see in the VMS is evidence of vord-splitting where there should be, that would be recognizable because Voynichese is very positional. There are some unusual endings like -cTy, -ss but no split endings -iin, -dy, -or, -ar, -ol, -al. Unusual vord endings like -ch, -Sh, -e and unattached endings (curiously more common in Currier-B) are found in random places, not at the end of lines and before interruptions, where they should be more common than elsewhere.
I'm not sure I fully understand this argument. First of all, you mentioned -dy and -ar, they both appear twice as isolated strings between image elements:
Code:# extracting all strings up to 2 EVA characters long that appear between image markers <-> in zl.txt
> cat zl.txt | egrep -o "<->[a-z.,]{1,3}<->"
<->sy.<->
<->ar.<->
<->ok.<->
<->dy.<->
<->yk.<->
<->ar.<->
<->o.<->
<->sy.<->
<->sy.<->
<->sy.<->
<->s.<->
<->dy.<->
Also, _ok_ and _yk_ are very unusual way to terminate a Voynich word. Overall, just looking at these 12 examples, half of them look exactly as Voynich word pieces/endings would look like.